Philip Salter at the Adam Smith Institute laments the lack of French taught in schools, and attributes this to schools preferring that children take easier subjects that will reflect well in the league tables.
There may be an element of truth in this, in that French or German at ‘O’ level is on a par with mathematics – there is either a right or a wrong answer. ‘Religious Studies’ on the other hand, require that you hold an opinion, much easier to ‘fudge’ your way through.
However, schools seem to have no aversion to teaching, nay insisting upon, pupils being proficient in other languages. In Wales, the teaching of Welsh is compulsory in all schools up to age 16, despite, or because of, the fact that only 20% of the population speak Welsh. There are handsome political benefits to be gained from preserving the language. This means that even the children of non-Welsh speaking parents grow up speaking some Welsh.
In Scotland, pre-school children are being taught Gaelic under the Curriculum for Excellence programme. So there is no sign of an inherent distaste for teaching languages per se amongst the teaching fraternity.
Paul Noble, a well known linguist, attributes the decline to the decision by the Labour Government in 2004 to remove ‘foreign language’ as a core compulsory subject for English pupils – note this did not apply to Welsh or Scottish pupils. Since then, the number of students studying French has fallen by 45%.
Whilst I can see some merit in preserving ancient languages such as Welsh or Gaelic, there is more economic sense in being able to communicate with our closest ‘foreign’ trading partner – the French; a mere 20 miles of overblown river separates us.
One of the major problems is that the French which is taught in schools is ‘Parisian’ French. The language of business and bureaucracy. A language which many Frenchmen have only a rudimentary understanding of, as you will quickly find out if you try out your ‘A’ level French on an Aquitaine farmer.
Parisian French as the universal language of France only dates back some 100 years, one of the reasons why the Mairie has a historic duty to help you compile letters or fill in forms addressed to the national government! Each department of French speaks its own version – and it may as well be Welsh for all the help it is communicating with a Parisian tax official.
Somewhere I have a list of the 1700 words which have the exact same meaning and same spelling in English and French – although there are a thousand or more ‘near misses’, known as the ‘faux amis’. It surprises many English speakers to learn that they already have a vocabulary of 1700 ‘French words’ – they just haven’t quite learnt how to pronounce them yet, nor mastered the Gallic shrug……
French grammar is perceived as ‘difficult’ – though not half as obscure as Welsh grammar, trust me. Yet in everyday conversation, many of the grammatical rules imposed in school French classes disappear.
If someone said to you ‘have key you I need for front door’, you would still understand what it was that they wanted, even if you did have to think about it for a moment or two, and would respond to the request a lot better than having someone shout ‘a-tu la clé de la porte d’entrée?’ three times, whilst looking exasperated at your stupidity.
Most of the English building trade, certainly all the lawyers, and bankers, have an extensive French vocabulary, learnt at their English Mother’s knee, for the simple reason that until the Norman invasion we had no such professions, and thus no words for the terms required – in the same way that the Welsh have no true Welsh word for ambulance – such things did not exist until introduced by the English.
Private schools still teach French and Latin – they recognise that students going on to study law for instance, will need to have a rudimentary understanding of those languages. Those educated in state schools thus face a far more effective bar to social mobility – to becoming a barrister for instance – than any perceived class barrier in the University entrance requirements.
The state schools are turning out an entire generation of children who can barely read or write their Mother tongue, never mind understand that their Mother tongue is largely either French, German or Latin; nor practice the most basic mathematics, who are thus only equipped for the most menial of jobs – at a time when menial jobs have almost disappeared from market.
There is something a lot deeper going on here than the school’s wish to do well in the league tables. Could it be part of the anti-European agenda?
Discuss.
SBML is the landlord of the Raccoon Arms. He lives North of Watford and has an eclictic range of interests from Science and Technology to Politics including Woodwork and Genealogy. His political viewpoint has evolved from being a student demonstrator to more liberal views and has now seen the light in Libertarianism.
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A-tu? According to my Frog teacher over thirty years ago ” tu-toiing” is restricted to a close family member, a child, a criminal, a lunatic or an animal. What anti-European agenda when the number of pupils taking GCSE Spanish has increased? The europhiliac Nulab stopped compulsory foreign languages after age 14 to boost their tractor stats. What scares me is that Religious Education (contradiction in terms) has replaced French in the exams league table.
“According to my Frog teacher over thirty years ago
z’avez la cl
Round here, they still”vous” to all but close family and children (L’Herault) and wouldn’t take kindly to the more familiar “tu” without invite.
Our neighbour is barely understandable, speaking as he does with a strong southern accent heavily influenced by Occitan (not helped by missing front teeth, a huge Saddam moustache and a tendency to lisp). I get maybe one word in five if I’m lucky. Native French speakers tell me they don’t fare much better…
As-tu
Gesundheit!
Chinese is a better language to learn than French as it will be a lot more useful as China becomes the major trader of the world.
In the past schools taught how to read and write and do proper grammer, but very little was done about the spoken language. It makes it possible to get around France by reading maps and signs but when it comes to talking with a French person, it’s just about impossible as nothing was taught about understanding French as it is spoken.
The best way of learning a language is an immersion method. Don’t bother with grammer, just get the words out of your mouth. Get comfortable with speaking and hearing it. Then fine tune by adjusting your grammer. Reading and writing can after you start speaking the language. All just like a child picks up a language from nothing.
Grammar?
Speeling comes last.
Recent phone calls to call centres and accounts departments in the Paris area demonstrate that French learned and spoken in Isere is much the same as the language used there. Bit out of date, I feel.
The grammarian John Palsgrave warned against the quality of French spoken south of the Loire. But his grammar was printed in 1530.
My 4 ENGLISH grandchildren are taught Welsh and a second language
(English) in their Druid infested borough
No problem ,they are also being taught German ,Spanish Latin, and Greek
so when they are older they can leave the Welsh idiots reciting some
forsaken bards mumblings at a rain sodden schaden festive Eistedffod/
Got out in ’45
I understand that Spanish is regarded by language teachers as the easiest for an English native speaker to learn (compared with French, German etc.). I can’t say, as I don’t speak it, but I’m sure that is why it is now more popular, both with children and with schools. French and German require hard work and understanding, which is anathema to everything modern schooling stands for.
As for Welsh, well – ‘Ambiwlans’ looks perfectly correct to me! The best ‘Wenglish’ I saw was on the side of a breakdown truck in mid-Wales, advertising ‘Teiars, Siocs, Egsosts, Brecs’. Phonologically perfect, if a little hard for the English eye to grasp.
Richard B, there’s photographic evidence here.
There should at least be plenty of jobs waiting for all those Welsh-educated children: this is from the same post…
‘….a visitor from out of town tells us that, should an English speaker wish to transact business in that language in certain Welsh government offices, the staff will, without cracking a smile, call for an interpreter, at the taxpayers’ expense, who will solemnly translate the words of the anglophone visitor for the staff, then relay the Welsh reply in perfect English.’
Macheath,
Years ago I used to have to telephone Rhonda Town Hall regularly, they would always answer the phone in Welsh; over time I trained myself to ask for the person I wanted in Welsh too – which would elicit the immediate reply – “transferring you to a welsh speaker”. They would dig out their tame Welsh speaker after much holding on. At which point I would confess that they had just exhausted my Welsh.
When laws were first passed in Welsh, they automatically conferred the right to be interviewed and charged in Welsh. I was told that one night they had to bring the sole welsh speaking policeman available the length of Wales, down to Cardiff, only for him to be told – in perfect Welsh – “I wish to make my statement in English……”
The Council are reblacktopping our road for the third time in ten years this week so last week a letter was delivered telling us the road would be closed for three days. On the reverse of the letter were no less than five Indian and Pakistani languages in their scripts. As a higher percentage of Welsh people in Wales speak Welsh than people in England speak Bengali, Gujerati, Hindi, Punjabi and Urdu combined, I have no objective to Welsh translations, especially as it is an indigenous language. It is also a beautiful sounding language as a quick youtube search for Cerys Matthews or Mary Hopkin will show.
Translating English into colonists’ languages doesn’t help integration, women’s rights or job-readiness and should be the first and easiest saving to reduce the deficit.
I used to sell things to Welsh local authorities. Whenever a gang of them got together, there had to be an interpreter, in case anyone wanted to ask a question in Welsh. But the proceedings were always entirely in English, and I never ever heard a question in Welsh. The translater never did any work, but doubtless always received his fee – he was a contractor. I used to wonder how much his charge was – anybody know the going rate?
David, I used to do a regular collection of visits to Bengali families in the Tower Hamlets area – and the translator would trail round after me all day, paid for by the government – and in ten years I never knew anybody use her.
It’s even reached the commanding heights of ATS – I’m impressed. My sighting was an old Transit flatbed near Machynlleth. I’m pretty sure the anecdote in the link is bollocks, though. In 20 years of living here, I have never come across anything quite as po-faced and stupid as that. Sometimes in North Wales people will ‘make a point’ of speaking in Welsh when they hear an English accent, but it’s rare in the South. But I don’t think even the North Walians could ask for a translator with a straight face. I suspect that it’s a ‘friend of a friend’ story. The real difficulty comes with local government and the media, where an ability to speak Welsh is an (often unspoken) requirement. Sometimes key posts are advertised in Welsh only, which is an effective filter against the bloody Saes.
I’m pretty relaxed about this. It’s their language, and it’s not up to me to criticise if the Welsh choose to use it – or to teach it to their kids. There is a small cost in providing bilingual materials, but in the great sceme of things it’s not much. And I like to hear it spoken. It’s a lovely language, although as Anna says the grammar is pretty impenetrable for an English speaker. The mutations defeat most people.
Richard B, the ‘friend of a friend’ is a cousin, and works for a government organisation which had better remain nameless (and yes, the job advert was in Welsh), but full marks for spotting that she works in the North. The instruction to call for a translator was issued verbally to her department a few months ago.
I’m not anti-Welsh by any means (in fact, it’s a source of regret that I don’t speak the language of many of my forbears) but I do object to unreasonable behaviour; I suspect my cousin experienced the results of a political point being made by someone in mid-ranking authority.
Incidentally, how many people out there managed to read through the list of words (Teiars etc) without saying any of them out loud?
Sorry, didn’t mean to suggest the story was untrue! Your guess about the middle-ranking official is probably correct. That’s nothing to do with Welsh, mind – the Welsh is the excuse for the jobsworthiness, not the cause.
One point about Welsh in schools – the schools that conduct teaching through the medium of Welsh have notably higher academic standards than the English-medium schools, and have queues of English-born parents at their gates hoping to sign up their offspring, and are usually vastly over-subscribed. There must be a reason for that.
As someone who is interested in languages, I also share your lament in the Labour-driven decline in the teaching of relevant modern languages in schools. If I were an expat living in France, then school French would be a useful starting point – but owing to the various regional dialects in France, the official Parisian dialect may not be that useful.
But I wonder if a knowledge of French from school is half as useful as Spanish, which is spoken widely in the Americas? I studied both to A-level, and I’ve found the Spanish has been far more useful to me in the 40 years since I went into the big wide world.. it even helped me on a couple of occasions in Romania..
I haven’t seen much mention of Esperanto yet in the ‘great language debate’. Esperanto has something to offer, even to the British.
1) It is relatively easy to learn and use.
2) Its speakersa are reasonably widespread across the globe.
I’d love to see Esperanto used more widely.
Mia kusenveturilo estas plena je angiloj
Eye arntgot th’foggiest wot yor onnabaht.
My hovercraft is full of eels.
I will not buy this record, it is scratched.
You get invited to use Toi around here, and pretty quickly.
But I must say I was very put out when a complete stranger used it to address me. And oh how I laughed at my reaction later.
According to Wikipedia there at most 2m fluent Esperanto speakers in the world (pop. 6,865,700,000) that’s about 0.29%. I suspect that the average perceived definition of ‘not a lot’ is much higher than 0.29%. Not a lot going for Esperanto eh!
Sorry slight cock-up with the calculator the number of fluent Esperanto speakers is only 0.029% of the world pop. OMG that is 1 in every 1,991,053 persons – oh missed one – never mind, there will be another one along in about 3.5 years, or was it 35 years.
Obviously you don’t know that you already master 80% of the usual vocabulary and grammar of Esperanto. You could already follow a lecture in Esperanto if you study the language during about 24 hours.
Unbelievable? Yes: that’s why you won’t even try!
Remu?
The end of compulsory language teaching after year 9 enabled schools to replace well-qualified and experienced full-time teachers with part-timers, thereby saving a chunk of the salary bill.
I agree that an amazing number of words are similar, and many more I think of as like seeing English out of focus, but often traceable to a similar concept so you can often guess the sense (like disponsible which reads like disposable and means available or for sale).
But I thought the
Among faux amis, I’ve come a cropper (conversationally) with pr
And the problem with NOT learning languages at a young age (primary school, preferably) is that you get much more self-conscious adults who can’t bring themselves to try lest they appear stupid. Typical uptight Brits. And of course, as you point out, “me Tarzan, you Jane” French is better received than no French. I’m reasonable in French, German and Italian (and Latin but of course a trip to the Vatican is unlikely), and can pidgin my way through in Spanish, Portuguese and Russian. Languages are like dominoes. The more you learn, the easier the next one is. Mind you, having extolled the virtues of having a go, I did make the classic “je suis pleine” mistake on my first school French exchange, aged 12, at a family dinner. Sigh.
Oh, and in the interests of general French/English language trivia for those who don’t know (probably everyone does, but hey ho): the circumflex usually replaces what was an S in Old French. So pate was paste, maitre was maistre (master), hotel was hostel. And fenetre was fenestre – the Welsh for window is fenster. I love languages!
Having spent years studying medieval French, I frequently make the mistake of putting in the ‘s’ , particularly with unfamiliar words. This invariably reduces francophone bystanders to helpless laughter, particlaurly since the device was used in ‘Les Visiteurs’ - still, at least it breaks the ice.
‘Window’ in Welsh is ‘ffenestr’ – close! But it’s a bit of a cheat, as it is a Latin import from the Middle Ages, not native Welsh at all. Same with ‘eglwys’ for ‘church. The circumflex idea is a good one. I use that a lot in france for guessing words I don’t know. The extra ‘s’ usually gets you close to what it is.
A few years ago, while holdaying in Pleneuf-Val-Andre, I found myself taking part in a prolonged, spirited, entertaining and entirely French-language post-prandial conversation. I conclude that (as long as I have consumed half-a-bottle of fine wine swiftly followed by a couple of cognacs at the bar) I am almost fluent in French.
Works for me every time Glo – I reccomend Vin de Noix for the full on effect, preferably with a couple of Pernods beforehand, clear all English speakers out of the area and then go for it!
Not sure about the Pernods; a couple of Bacardi Breezers might be best if I want to ensure that my accent stays relentlessly ‘estuary’ from the first ‘bonnsewer’ to the final ‘ohrivwah’. Truth be told, I think it’s the cognacs wot does the job really!
I have a reasonable ear for languages, and I have been told that my pronunciation is good, but my French is more enthusiastic than correct. My technique is to think of what I want to say and then let it all go. It seems to work: I have had many long and involved conversations with French speakers, and we always got there in the end. They were probably cringing at my grammar, but I suspect they appreciated the effort. Apart from once in Paris, I have never yet had a French person be rude to me. As the English commonly regard the French as rude, I can only think that shouting loudly in a foreign language irritates the hell out of the French, and I’m sure I would be the same. You make the effort, and the French will respond more than generously. Mind you, my experience may be biased by the fact that I always head for places off the beaten track, where few people speak any English at all. Perhaps I just come across as unusual and exotic.
Got a C in French at O-level, a C in Maths and an E in RE – my opinions obviously did not sit well with the pen cachi marking it. Was taught French by a teacher from Merthyr. Was taught RE by Brother Dominic who carried a cane in a scabbard.
About French and Esperanto.
If you want to learn French and have not gotten too far, try French in Action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKSSF9Mt480
.
Full text
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6150224/French-in-Action-Basic-Course-52-Lessons-by-Pierre-Capretz
.
More details (fia = French in Action)
http://fiafans.org/about
.
http://www.learner.org/resources/series83.html?pop=yes&pid=684#
– - -
Esperanto:
You may try 2 different approaches.
1. Expend lots of times finding Esperanto problems and statistics.
2. Expend 10 – 20 hours learning Esperanto, and start using it.
After receiving Esperanto speakers from other countries in your house, or visiting Esperanto speakers in other countries, or being able to contact people in most countries … People that had learned Esperanto _wants_ to talk with people from other countries. After enjoying the use of Esperanto during some time, you will no longer feel a need to find out why Esperanto doesn’t work.
http://esperantofre.com/edu/iloj01a.htm
If the recent Daily Mail reports are correct, it would appear that a knowledge of French will soon be obligatory for aspiring matelots..
Such as the motto of the Marine Nationale , “A l’eau, c’est l’heure”.
My father’s father was brought up in wales and was a fluent Welsh speaker. He also boxed in the army and left the army after WWI as a sergeant.
He was in a pub in Wales and ordered his pint in English. Two other drinkers were being incredibly rude about him in Welsh ………..so he turned and in fluent Welsh asked them to go outside where he beat the shit out of both of them. Ah, the joys of being multilingual. He spoke Arabic too. Claimed it had similar sounds to Welsh!
Arabic, Welsh? Must be mutual interest in sheep…….