On arriving at Libertarianism from a Quaker viewpoint.

by admin on November 17, 2010

I realise that I shall probably come in for some shtick for even mentioning any form of spiritual faith in the same breath as Libertarianism, Hey Ho!

One of my readers picked up on the fact that I said that I had arrived at Libertarianism from ‘a Quaker vantage point’ and has asked me to explain further. I could have done so in a private reply, but have decided to stick my head above the parapet. (Yet again).

I should define what I mean by spiritual faith first. It may have a different meaning to that employed by others, for the simple reason that such things are not defined in any book of rules within the Quaker fellowship. We arrive at our own personal definition.

I don’t know, for I have never met anyone who has travelled outside of our physical existence, that there is definitively a God. Some people, armed with the knowledge that there is no proof that God doesn’t exist, are happy to believe that He does, and follow their chosen religion. Others, armed with the knowledge that there is no proof that God does exist, are happy to call themselves Atheist, and denounce all religion. I struggle with the notion that an absence of proof either way means that I should join either one of the opposing camps.

I simply don’t know. I hope, I trust, I put it no higher than that, that mankind is not the highest form of existence in overall control of our planetary system. If mankind is, I would venture that we are in bigger trouble than we are capable of envisioning. I live my life on the basis that I shan’t know the answer to this question until I die – and until I do, I will assume that there may well be a God.

The Quaker fellowship doesn’t demand of me that I declare emphatically one way or the other my beliefs. There are no churches, no intermediaries, or ‘middle men’ as I refer to them, to demand that I renounce all other beliefs and publicly declare my allegiance – just a fellowship of other people very privately going about their business, living in a simple manner, trying their level best to do more good than harm. That seems to me an eminently sensible ‘insurance policy’ just in case we do have to account for ourselves one day.

A Quaker meeting is primarily in silence, a quiet dedicated hour or so set aside to reflect on how we think we have succeeded in our personal goal of ‘more good than harm’. The silence is occasionally broken by someone who feels that they have something to say, some insight that might be of use to others. There is no obligation to speak, no reason not to. There is no High Priest to tell us how we should live, or which rules to adhere to, no village elder to declare that this or that action will be condemned by this God or that God. Nor is there anyone specially commissioned to offer us a ‘get out of jail’ card if we have managed to cause more harm than good by one of our actions.

My ‘spiritual faith’ is entirely a matter for my conscience, my personal responsibility.

When I first ventured into the political bear pit, I was puzzled by the devotion of the party members – Left or Right. Conferences were held every year to decide on the party line, henceforth those who disagreed with the party line were liable to be vilified. It was almost as though they had threatened the very salvation of the rest of their chosen tribe.

You ‘were’ a Labour voter or a Conservative voter, and therefore this is what you believed. People arrived at this ‘belief’ through a process called ‘democracy’, the conference vote, and if 51% of them believed that Black was White – then the other 49% were forced to mouth the same supposition – and that was democracy on a good day!

I don’t want to be told what to think or what to do based on a man in a suit, regardless of which way round his collar is, holding up a piece of paper and saying ‘henceforth, this is what we believe’. I would prefer to make my own mind up on the basis of individual choices at a personal level.

That doesn’t make me a dyed in the wool individualist, who merely wants to get on with my life without outside interference, contributing nothing to my fellow man. I don’t hold with that notion of Libertarianism, which seems nothing more than a form of institutionalised selfishness that uses a misplaced understanding of the Libertarian label to excuse their egotism.

If I have time, money, knowledge, a spare bed for the night, even a pork chop, that is surplus to my requirements, then the Quaker principle of doing ‘more good than harm’ requires that I share it with someone who is in need – someone who is more vulnerable to the vagaries of physical existence than I am at that moment. It is perfectly possible to do that on a personal level – you don’t require a government edict to demand that you share your supper with a starving neighbour; human beings have been doing it for centuries.

Sometimes you need more than one person to give effective help to someone in need. People can and do act in concert without government intervention. There are those who will refuse to offer help when asked. So what? Let them live their individualistic existence. There are plenty of people who will help.

Many of the early Friendly Societies, groups of people who banded together to provide help and assistance for any of their number who fell on hard times, were of the Quaker belief. The idea that people can live together in peace and tolerance, mutually supportive of each other, without being ordered to do so, is one that sits easily with my beliefs.

The Blogosphere is a Friendly Society – I still say that even after recent experiences! – it can be mutually supportive, it can achieve far more collectively than any of us do individually. I christened it the Blog Society as opposed to Cameron’s ‘Big Society’.  It should form the backbone of the Libertarian movement, for it allows all those who subscribe to it to step up to a call for help or ignore it at will, no vote required, no orders given.

There will be those who mock and sneer; there will be others who use the Blogosphere to write lengthy philosophical treatise on why their political movement is the one you should be following – but the ungoverned blogosphere is the perfect environment for the Libertarian movement to exist unfettered and to do ‘more good than harm’.

That is why I have nominated Andrew Withers as the new Libertarian leader, for I know that he will take the movement in a new direction, one which I believe will benefit all of us. A direction closer to the philosophy of the early Friendly Societies rather than the foul mouthed, vitriolic and destructive Anarchism that we have become associated with.

If you doubt that this is what the Libertarian movement has become associated with – then read some of the reports on the recent student riots, where the phrase Anarchist/Libertarian was freely bandied about by journalists. The two words have become interchangeable in many minds, aided and abetted by a MSM that is keen to see the status quo of Left/Right maintained.

Libertarianism is in desperate need of re-branding!  The solution is in our own hands – we don’t need to be told what to do, we are Libertarians after all.

{ 38 comments }

1 Jean Davies November 17, 2010 at 16:38

although wishing to remain anonymous, I had to write to thank you for your definition of being a Quaker. It closely echoes what I have long felt, but didn’t know where I belong. Thank you Anna for your humanity, and your courage to speak out. Yours is the first blog I read each day, and I felt quite bereft when you decided to leave, it was like my best friend didn’t like me anymore! Now I can still read you and enjoy.
Jean

2 Sister Eva Longoria November 17, 2010 at 16:59

It all seems eminently sensible to me!

3 Timac November 17, 2010 at 17:03

Nicely put, Annaraccoon

I was a christian before I was a Libertarian. You have to have a belief in the goodness of Man in order to want to give power back to him (or her). Humanists can come to the same conclusions, obviously.
I was also never totally convinced by ethical egoism. You can explain all actions in that way but my intuition says otherwise (plus there’s that whole self sacrifice thing that can’t be batted away easily)

On LPUK, the party cannot be taken seriously with it’s angry, shouty image at the moment. I was a member of the US Libertarian party and campaigned for them locally when I was living there but I’ll wait and see here. DK is not a serious politician, nice and intelligent guy though I’m sure he is.

4 Olivers Army November 17, 2010 at 17:31

If I may throw Tom Paine in to the mix, in The Age of Reason he gives one of the clearest expositions of libertarian theism ever to have appeared in print. “I believe in one God and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life. I believe the equality of man and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our fellow-creatures happy. I do not believe in the creed professed……by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.”

Thanks for your thoughtful article Anna. My own beliefs are broadly Christian but with buddhist tendencies in that I prefer to meditate quietly rather than sing hymns and engage in collective acts of worship.

As to libertarianism being in dire need of re-branding I couldn’t agree more.

5 Richard B November 17, 2010 at 18:31

Plenty of food for thought here. I regard myself as agnostic rather than atheist: it’s not that we know whether or not there is a God, but that we will never know. By definition we *cannot* know. To say “you must have faith” isn’t good enough, I’m afraid. I regard all organised religions with equal suspicion, in the same way that I suspect anyone who tells me that he has all the answers. I am drawn towards Buddhism, if anything. I know little about the Quakers, other than regarding them as faintly nutty but harmless – probably a result of what I was told as a child. Your description makes me want to know more. Thank you.

6 Anna Raccoon November 17, 2010 at 18:34

“faintly nutty but harmless”
I want that on my gravestone!!!!
There are as many varieties of Quakerism as there are of Christianity…….

7 JuliaM November 17, 2010 at 19:24

Excellent post!

8 woodsy42 November 17, 2010 at 20:33

From the lofty intellectual heights of my agnosticism I have to say this is an interesting read. I’m unconvinced by the ‘God’ stuff, but I think I agree with the philosphy and attitudes as described in your post.
But I have always had a ‘soft spot’ for the Quakers from my youth. I was never one for unquestioning obedience even then, and once in my teens and having rejected the C of E and looked around it was the only major religion I found that didn’t call on the ‘authority’ of the church or use ‘threats’ and coercion to enforce obedience. Rather that encouraged the ‘members’ to think for themselves.
In fact it’s alway appeared to me to be as much, or maybe more, of a philisophy than a typical religion. My understanding is that it celebrates and supports a positive view of the good that is in people, and encourages people to do good, something it’s easy to forget in our angry, negative and spirtitually impoverished world. As such it also makes an interesting contrast to religions that are designed to ‘control’ the bad in people.
So personally I see absolutely nothing strange about mixing Quakerism (can one say that?) with Libertarianism, indeed it seems to me to be the obvious religion to fit alongside it – for those that feel the need of a religion of course.

9 Anna Raccoon November 17, 2010 at 20:58

“In fact it’s always appeared to me to be as much, or maybe more, of a philisophy than a typical religion.”

I think that sums up my view as well Woodsy, I see it more as a philosophy and template for life than a religion.

Just as well, since it is considered a ‘culte’ here in France (as is everything barring Roman Catholicism……!!!.)

10 backwoodsman November 18, 2010 at 11:16

Surely to a rational person, one would hope that any creed resulted in individuals who were as nice as possible to other people & who co-existed as harmoniously as possible with the natural world. Both Buddhists & Quakers seem to fit into this category.
The self detonating community still have some way to go, to achieve this status !

11 Fabian the Fabulous November 17, 2010 at 21:10

I’m so glad to see you’re back in the blogosphere, I can’t think of anything to say!
Welcome back Anna!

12 Ian R Thorpe November 17, 2010 at 21:12

I noticed the bletherer – in-chief Obama was blethering the other day about science and reason not winning the arguement. It concerns me a little that science is being politicised and claimed by the left as their own. There is nothing in the sciences that precludes belief in a higher being.

I also worry about people who call themselves libertarians but object to my defending the right of people to use homeopathic remedies (not the same thing as demanding homeopathic treatments be funded by the NHS which I do not support)

I also do not like the ‘liberals’ / ‘libertarians’ / ‘progressives’ who assume because I question Big Bang theory I must be a creationist. There is no proof for either, the only answer to ‘how did it all begin’ that does not rely on belief is “We dont know.”

So I can support you Anna. Quakers have been libertarians for much longer than the people who are simply pissed off with the political establishment.

13 Brian November 17, 2010 at 23:16

Excellent post as always. Another good thing about Quakers is their pioneering work in the chocolate and tobacco industries – what’s not to like about that?

14 SadButMadLad November 17, 2010 at 23:17

Faith is many things. You can have faith in a god. But you can also have faith that someone behind you will catch you when you fall. Faith does not necessarily religous faith. You can also have faith in a political creed.

It could be said that Communism (or any other poltical form) is a religon. It has all the hallmarks of such. The saints (Marx et al). The high priest. The restricted access to the top levels unless you go through the proper “religous” process. Conversion and baptism into the belief by signing up to the party. The belief that all other forms of politics are wrong and not the one and true path to enlightment.

But then you meet the problem with all religons and politics – one is better than all the others and the proponents will fight each other to prove it.

Quakerism sounds like it doesn’t suffer from these problems.

If libertarianism is like quakerism without the “religous” overtone then it should aim for the same thing. Minimal conflicts. Peaceful debate. Doing good. None of this fighting to prove it is better. Just let people see that libertarianism just works – because it is a natural thing to do.

There is also the “big society” stuff of just getting stuck in be it with a spare pork chop or a bed for the night or joining with others to provide help for those who can’t help themselves. It does not need a central organisation to tell people what they should volunteer for, they just do it because it’s a human thing to do to help the common man.

Big society decided on by a political party or the state is not a big society, it’s still a big state doing all the decision making. The decision making should be done at the work face. That’s where the knowledge really is. Ask a nurse how to do their job and they can tell you. Ask an adminstrator how a nurse should do their job and they will tell you something totally different but which is usually unworkable. Political decision making should be done at a similar point, by the people themselves and locally.

A bit rambling but I’m tired and it’s late but hopefully someone understands some of my points. My main one being that I agree with Anna.

15 zaphod November 17, 2010 at 23:47

My definition of atheist:

I am convinced that there is no god. I’m not claiming “proof”. I don’t need “proof” in order to be convinced. I know of no mystery that requires god as an explanation, especially as god would be a much bigger mystery.

Ditto for Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and ogres under the bed, etc.

I could be wrong about any or all of them, but I seriously doubt it.

The only things that can be “proved” are Maths, and “I think, therefore I am.” So we just base our lives on what we’re convinced of.

Others are convinced otherwise. I’m cool with that, except for those who are convinced that I should follow rules dictated by their god, rules which are not negotiable; or open to explanation or debate.
I like the sound of Quakers though, Anna.

Ian R Thorpe- With a bit of inquiry, the basic big bang theory is bleedin’ obvious. It’s not complicated, just the doppler effect. Everything is clearly moving apart, generally. The further it is, the faster it’s going. There’s only one way of rewinding that into the past.

The fiddly details are informed speculation, constantly leading to more careful measurement. Nobody needs to understand or believe in them unless they want to spectate or join in the fun. There is no dogma. There will never be “proof”. Of anything.
If your theory involves fairies, it probably won’t convince many scientists, but try, by all means.

Sorry if this sounds humourless, :-) but scientists seldom actually claim to have “proof”. They only seek to test their own theories to destruction, and sometimes they triumphantly succeed. Show me a religion that does that!

16 Dokely November 18, 2010 at 02:15

Keep posting Anna. Your careful words and your thoughtful analysis are an inspiration to me, and I hope, many others.

On occassion you are also very funny too, which is never a bad thing.

17 allcoppedout November 18, 2010 at 03:10

Religion is not the problem and quite boring to the agnostic – which this post wasn’t. It’s the rationalist fantasy that we can prove the existence of god or not that leads to that horrible form of public authority when all we have are internalist accounts on these matters. Science has shown a lot of religious accounts are myth or fable, but there is no reason for religion not to leave this ignorance behind.

18 Andrew P Withers November 18, 2010 at 08:24

This is probably one of the the best posts you have done- but then again I am slightly biased.

19 Eleanor November 18, 2010 at 09:00

I can’t remember how many times I have changed my mind in my lifetime. In fact, I have been known to change it two or three times in the space of a couple of hours.
But Planet Earth is a miracle to me, and I just can’t see that happening by accident.

Nothing to be done about death, just do the best you can while you are here.

20 Caedmon's Cat November 18, 2010 at 10:03

I started life in the blogosphere with vague socialistic ideals, albeit cynical towards and disillusioned by the Labour Party’s direction. I’ve been an evangelical Christian for over 30 years, having personally experienced God in ways which have only served to advance and confirm my confidence in the Christian message – and Messenger. I’ve arrived at the position of anarchist (in the constructive sense of the term, as with Obo’s position) – and I see sufficient in Scripture to indicate to me that this is a reasonable and biblical position to take. I therefore feel comfortable in the presence of libertarians, since we all share a similar outlook. I won’t bore you my theological reasons – unless anyone specifically requests it!

21 Pericles November 18, 2010 at 10:08

“I struggle with the notion that an absence of proof … means that I should join either one of the opposing camps.”

You are an agnostic ;  in fact because — as indeed you imply — no-one has gathered evidence from beyond our physical existence we are all agnostics :  i.e. we do not know.

Ian R Thorpe makes the point neatly — both spiritually and temporally.

~ · ~

“I hope, I trust … that mankind is not the highest form of existence in overall control of our planetary system.”

What makes you think mankind is in any wise in ‘control of our planetary system’ ?  Surely not the absurd faith of the environmentalist movement in anthropogenic global warming and anthropogenic everything else ?  I suggest that the planetary and all other physical systems (therefore the entire universe) are controlled not by man but by the laws of physics — which one might call God or al-Lah or Yahweh or anything else.

~ · ~

SadButMadLad seems to confound faith and belief.  Faith is not — nor need it be — supported by evidence ;  belief, such as the belief that he behind you will catch you as you fall, is based on evidence :  experience, friendship, even contractual obligation or the intriguing French law that requires one to go to the aid of one periculo in mortis.

He’s dead right, however, to say that “[b]ig society decided on by … the state is … still a big state doing all the decision making.”  When the need arises, people meet the need without the intervention of the state.

~ · ~

zaphod seems to contradict himself in saying, on the one paw, that scientists seek to test hypotheses to destruction but, on the other, that the big-bang theory is “bleedin’ obvious” (sc. beyond question).  In fact even the so called laws of physics are mere hypotheses that we’ve given up trying to disprove.

~ · ~

I recall reading years ago in the works of Mary Baker Eddy, that, when she was most in need, the Quakers were the ones that did not pass by on the other side.

ΠΞ

22 SadButMadLad November 18, 2010 at 22:00

I was trying to confound faith and belief, though I was tired and it probably didn’t come out right.

Though I do think it is faith to trust the person behind to catch you. There is no evidence to say that the person will catch you the first time it happens – especially if they are someone you don’t know.

23 Pericles November 18, 2010 at 22:15

Perhaps what we’re discussing here, then, is actually hope rather than any form of belief.

Is belief conviction by the evidence (or by a misunderstanding of the evidence) ;  faith belief despite the evidence (or lack of evidence) ?

ΠΞ

24 Caedmon's Cat November 19, 2010 at 08:59

The New Testament Greek word ελπις – translated into our word ‘hope’ – conveys certainty and expectation. Sadly, our sense of the word only carries the idea of wishful thinking, so it’s a bum translation, but the best we have in an equivalent word.
Hebrews 11:1 ‘…now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence (substantiation) of things unseen.’
The entire chapter of this NT letter revolves around examples of those who had encounters with the Almighty and accepted his promises; this was to remind the Jewish Christians that they had every encouragement and reason to hang on through the hardest times.

25 Pericles November 19, 2010 at 20:32

Yes ;  in antiquity ελπίς had a wide scope that included fear.

ΠΞ

26 SadButMadLad November 19, 2010 at 14:08

Duh! I wasN’T trying to confound……. I did say I was tired!

27 The Penguin November 18, 2010 at 12:15

The blogosphere would be a smaller, meaner, darker place without the likes of Anna Raccoon to balance angry gits like me.

More power to your paw.
The Penguin

28 Richard Jones November 18, 2010 at 13:19

I was very confused when you disappeared, it took me a while to find out why you had gone, I stopped looking to see if you would come back.
Quite by accident I clicked on you within my favourites and you have reappeared, it must have been divine providence!
Anyway so glad you are back, I don’t always agree but you always make me think!

29 Heresy_Corner November 18, 2010 at 14:26

@annaraccoon2010 Glad to see you back

30 Michael Fowke November 18, 2010 at 14:35

God definitely exists, and there would be no morality without Him – despite what certain humanists might want to believe. However, I have no time for man-made organized religion. God is pure consciousness. He is not human. Not only that, I doubt whether humans are particulary important to him. There are billions of planets in the universe, with all kinds of creatures living on them. Well, that’s what I reckon.

31 1party4all November 18, 2010 at 16:06

@annaraccoon2010 Libertarianism from an Islamic viewpoint is also a possibility.

32 zaphod November 20, 2010 at 09:09

Pericles,
Occasionally a scientist tries to construct an evidence-based alternative to the basic big bang notion. (Notably Fred Hoyle) Their attempts generally meet with (amused) approval.
It remains bleedin’ obvious, nevertheless. The measurements and logic are easy for anyone to follow.

Newton’s gravity was similarly easy to follow. It didn’t contradict any holy writings, so was universally accepted. But it was eventually eclipsed scientifically by Einstein’s version. This is difficult to follow, but gives more accurate results in extreme conditions. Scientists judge theories by results, not by whether they’re user-friendly or popular.

Most modern science is not obvious, though. There is such a lot of it now. It’s easier to be amazed by the world and to imagine fairies, than to personally check the entire trail of evidence.

I’ve checked the bits that interest me, and am reassured by the fact that others are checking other bits.

The important point is that, unlike religion, science seldom excommunicates mavericks or apostates. That’s why it progresses, and is able to reverse out of dead-ends.

Those believers whose faith in a god stems from personal experience, have nothing to offer me. They disagree about their various gods, so clearly most of them have deluded themselves.

33 Pericles November 20, 2010 at 16:04

As you, zaphod, I favour atheism ;  our difference, I think, lies in my acknowledged agnosticism (sc. ignorance).

“… unlike religion, science seldom excommunicates mavericks or apostates.  That’s why it progresses, and is able to reverse out of dead-ends,” you say.

Not that I think the vast number of scientists would accept the terms ‘maverick’ and ‘apostate’ but I wonder whether you consider those that question anthropogenic global warming to fall in to either category.  Perhaps you can predict how long it will take for members of the scientific community that so vigorously promote the idea — and the politicians that fund them with our money — to reverse out of this dead-end.

ΠΞ

34 zaphod November 20, 2010 at 20:40

Oops. you got me there, Pericles!

But we live in strange times. I’m hoping that this chasing of funding in difficult times is something that science will come to be very embarrassed about in the future.
Belief unsupported by evidence? Am I guilty of faith?

Bugger! You got me there alright.

(Slinks off, whistling casually. Turns corner, then runs away.)

Phooey.

35 Pericles November 20, 2010 at 21:52

LOL !  Not that it’s a competition ;  an interesting discussion none the less.

ΠΞ

[Exit pursued by a raccoon]

36 Claire Khaw November 21, 2010 at 10:04

It may come as a surprised to many of you, but the Koran supports many libertarian principles.

A 20% flat rate income tax sounds quite libertarian to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums

37 Claire Khaw November 21, 2010 at 10:07

If you lash 100 times anyone having extra-marital sex then you won’t have all those single mums who are a burden on the state, will you?

If you abolished child benefit you wouldn’t have parasites breeding parasites for generation after generation, would you?

Britain is now a nation of bastards. Well, half of them anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums

Go to page 88 for that horrifying statistic.

Britain has probably reached the point of no return.

38 zaphod November 23, 2010 at 20:25

Wow, I pride myself on being quite objectionable sometimes, but that Claire Khaw is poisonous, innit?
I’d rather share my planet with “parasites” and “bastards”, then people like her. No, seriously, I would.

Claire, do you have any redeeming qualities which are not apparent?