A frisson of excitement ran through the blogosphere late last night as news of Robert Green’s arrest in Aberdeen spread.
The facts as they first appeared seemed electrifying, a legal advisor prevented from going about his business by a Scottish legal conspiracy? Grist to the blogosphere mill.
A little digging reveals more froth on this than a pint of Guinness.
Robert Green is not a legal advisor. He is a lay advisor, journalist and broadcaster. I have about my person a copy of a letter he wrote in January 2010 where he admits that he is a lay advisor when addressing the Mental Welfare Commission of Scotland. Copies of that letter freely available to anyone who is interested.
Robert Green, although a Shropshire man, is intending to stand as an independent candidate in the Aberdeen South ward in the forthcoming General Election. As a journalist and broadcaster he would be more than aware of the value of a good ‘story’. Indeed, he has been touring the country giving a series of talks regarding his research into sexual abuse in the Aberdeen area. He should be more than aware of the laws of defamation and would definitely be aware of the difference between the standard of proof required in a civil case and that required for a criminal case.
Mr Green was allegedly intending to hand out pamphlets that claimed there was a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice on the part of some very senior legal and political figures in Scotland.
There are those who say that in the interests of ‘free speech’ anybody should be allowed to say anything they please at whatever time, based on whatever idea pops into their head. I don’t subscribe to that view, nor does the oft quoted Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights. ‘Freedom of Expression’ as it is known there is a qualified right. Qualified as John Stuart Mills always intended, by the harm principle. You don’t have the right to defame, or harm, individuals by your free speech.
Child abuse is possibly the most incendiary accusation that can be levelled against anyone today, and particular care should be taken before making it. Robert Green was allegedly about to level that accusation against senior political and legal figures. We should perhaps look at the basis on which he felt entitled to make that accusation before assuming a conspiracy to silence him.
The young woman involved – and I don’t propose to name her, for reasons I will explain later – has claimed for several years that she was sexually abused by a group of men connected to her father in Aberdeen. The medical evidence apparently corroborates this, and I have no difficulty in believing her. It is a sad fact of life that many girls with Down’s syndrome are both tactile and highly sexed, an unfortunate combination in highly vulnerable individuals, and as such they are disproportionately represented amongst the tragic list of those who suffer child abuse. I don’t make those comments in any sense of ‘excusing’ the men involved, it is for adults to make responsible decisions, but in sad acceptance of the fact that yes, she probably was abused. In my experience, parents of children with Down’s syndrome are only too aware of the dangers, and take extra precautions to make sure that their children are safe.
The allegations of abuse were investigated by Grampian police, at a senior level, and the young woman received compensation from the criminal injuries fund following evidence from a Grampain detective inspector who described her as “a truthful witness to the best of her ability and an entirely innocent victim”. She received £13,500 which is the tariff payment for such cases. The evidential test is on the civil standard, namely the balance of probabilities. There is no requirement for corroboration.
The fact that she received compensation ‘as an innocent victim of violence’ under circumstances where no corroboration was required, cannot, under any stretch of the imagination be taken as proof that her allegations as to who had carried out the abuse would form credible or reliable evidence to carry out a criminal prosecution. The fact that Grampian police are not undertaking any prosecution of individuals named by this girl, where they have neither corroboration nor reliable evidence cannot be taken to be a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice – it is rather more a conspiracy to assert the course of justice.
Do you really want a society where you can find yourself labelled as a child abuser and forced to stand trial in many months time on the basis of an uncorroborated claim from a witness who can only tell the truth ‘to the best of her (diminished) ability’ – is that really the cause you are championing when you demand that those she has named stand trial?
Because there is another factor in this saga. Her Mother. The woman that Robert Green says was:
“assaulted and rendered unconscious by a group of assailants as she was about to enter her home. When she came to she found herself in Aberdeen Mental Institution and informed she was mentally ill”
We know from Robert Green’s letter to the Scottish Mental Welfare Commission that the Mother was ‘sectioned’ in common parlance. We do not know what metal illness she may or may not have suffered from, nor who these alleged ‘assailants’ were – though we can surmise that they were in fact a community psychiatric nurse and a doctor, we can surmise that because otherwise the receiving officer at the mental institution would also have to be part of this ‘conspiracy’ if he were to receive a comatose tranquilised patient from any old gang of assailants. Since this occurred some 10 years before Robert Green wrote to the mental health commission we can also surmise that despite his alarmist language which reaches out to every tin foil hat reader in the universe that there may indeed have been sound reasons fro tranquilising her for the good of her health. I am not saying that this is so, merely that we actually have no evidence to the contrary.
So, we have a vulnerable mentally disabled girl who has almost certainly been sexually abused, by her Father amonst others, we have a Mother who has suffered such mental trauma at being made aware of her ex-husbands deeds that we are reasonably sure that she was taken to a mental hospital for her own good – and we have a prospective parliamentary candidate who thinks nothing of picking these two up and driving them half way across the country – from Cheshire to Bristol – in order to publicise his belief that the police should be prosecuting senior political figures, without corroborating evidence, of a heinous crime.
Enter the Scottish legal system, who in their ham fisted way, decide to start issuing injunctions to everyone who even dares to mention the matter – thus ensuring that the blogosphere is alive with pictures and identifying details of a young girls sexual life.
There are many unedifying figures hanging around child abuse cases. This is not the first case to attract faux legal advisers with a brief case full of pamphlets who spend their days and nights on-line discussing the intricacies of the latest child abuse. Nor will Robert Green be the first such who fancied his chances as a politician.
I don’t intend to name the young woman because if there is anything which comes close to the obscenity of child abuse, it is the abuse of a child which takes place when the self righteous decide to use her name and face to publicise themselves in the name of a variation of ‘free speech’ that they would be the first to decry if it were turned on them or in the name of a demand for criminal prosecution on such flimsy evidence – not that she was abused, but who had abused her, note – that the blogosphere would implode if there was any suggestion that Robert Green’s prosecution should rest on such evidence.
Grrrrr!
Anna is the landlady of the Raccoon Arms. She lives in the Monbazillac area of South West France and still takes a keen interest in British politics.
{ 136 comments }
Never let the facets get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
Hear hear, Anna. Well said!!
Good article Anna and puts things into context, not at all familiar with this case. I assume that this Green has a list of potential people he wants hauled up on sex offences – I think with any case that involves child abductions, abuse and murder there is always a corner of the internet that will be linking the various cases through to high level sex rings in the government and beyond, with a little devil worship and human sacrifice thrown in for good measure.
It was the same with the two children in Soham – I think it was about a week before the first “reports” of a local satanist cult had whisked them away for a sacrificial ceremony. It seems all to easy these days for people to point at one another and yell “paedophile!”
Given the current, deafening silence over this case in the Scottish media, it would appear that the injunctions, ham-fisted or otherwise, are working – less a case of “watch this space”, than “move along, nothing to see here” I would suspect. Of course, accusing the Scottish legal elite of conniving, to cover their own well-upholstered bahookies, would be as nonsensical as accusing the Church of the same thing – perish the thought.
I’m no conspiracy theorist but I can’t help but note that, should I have to write a scene for a play or tv, I’d have my protagonists do everything that the Scottish establishment has done here. If I wanted to have my potential audience nodding in agreement that something mighty odd was going on, that is…
JuliaM,
I could not agree more – the injunction has just played right into the hands of the conspiracy theorists.
The case has been investigated at a very high level, both at the time and subsequently. But however you try to spin it, however many times it is investigated, at the end of the day you are left with the allegations of a girl of diminished mental capacity as retold by her Mother. There is no corroborating evidence.
Given that there is never going to be any movement on the evidence available to prosecute – do you find it healthy that this girl and her Mother are being used and publicised to take shots at political opponenents?
If there was a smidgeon of a chance that a prosecution could ever take place, a missing witness perhaps, then I could understand, but there isn’t and Robert Green knows that – it is cynical in my view, and a second abuse of the girl.
You neglected to mention that this case was never properly investigated by Grampian Police. Out of a number of children named to them, they only ever interviewed Hollie.
The trouble is people are going to think the worst here, and what is needed is some transparency from the authorities. The case should be put to a police force outside Scotland, for a thorough independent reinvestigation.
There have been stories of authority figures being involved in child abuse in Scotland for as long as I can remember. Most Scots are aware of them, and aware that the police and prosecuting authorities there are often corrupt, and stuffed FULL of freemasons. The people named as abusers have had loads of time in which to sue, if the allegations are false. Why are they silent?
No doubt in certain circles, the Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) rubbish will no doubt flourish. The only big-time abuser here is Robert Green. Peddling us conspiracies left, right and centre from the David Icke school of thought.
As the other children who were allegedly involved in this were never interviewed by the police, as was the case with the alleged abusers, then how can there be corroboration?
“…do you find it healthy that this girl and her Mother are being used and publicised to take shots at political opponenents?”
If that turns out to be what’s happening, then no. That’s pretty sick, but then, politics is a sick, sick game.
However, if that’s what’s happening, then the police and judiciary have played into their hands with a display of such bumbling incompetence that, should we ever need to recast Inspector Clouseau, we have a potential pool of hundreds. As long as the accent problem can be resolved…
I think DaveP’s suggestion here would have been the right way to go: “The trouble is people are going to think the worst here, and what is needed is some transparency from the authorities. The case should be put to a police force outside Scotland, for a thorough independent reinvestigation.”
What’s that old saying, ‘It isn’t the deed that gets you, it’s the cover up…’?
Maybe it needs to be updated to ‘It isn’t the deed that gets you, it’s the illusion you accidentally manufacture of there being a cover up…’
I am sorry to say that I do not buy what you have written. It seems to me that you have just defamed Robert Green using your own free speech.
In a case like this we need to get all of the facts into the open and let the blame fall where it may. The reputations of the senior people mentioned are already damaged so it would make sense to have the record set straight by revealing all that is known by all of the alleged victims.
The Sectioning aspect of this whole story.
If Ms Raccoon & her loyal Ditto-Heads
really believe that The Authorities
would be averse to arranging for a tame psychiatrist
to Do The Business, then you
Mr Quayle,
It take more than one psychiatrist……
And as for your comments re: gender, do you have a source for this, or is that just gossip?
“And what ability would a non-Scottish police man / woman / force have to investigate crime in Scotland? Different legal system….”
They might not have the powers, but a purely investigative role shouldn’t be beyond them, surely?:
S Evil.. Scottish police forces are too closely intertwined. Has to be a totally independent investigation. The police would just investigate; not apply any law, as that will be done by the procurator fiscal, as is normal. If you haven’t noticed Scotland is full of serving English policemen.
All of which just goes to show, that nothing whispers “something to hide” louder than an injunction.
My congratulations Anna for a cogently argued, beautifully written piece.
Anna,
thank you for a very useful counterpoint.
I have to explain however why I am still much more inclined to take this story seriously. I made a couple of comments to this effect over at OH’s place and actually felt severe regret over making them for the reason that I’ve kept silent online (and only spoken to a handful of very close people offline) about this. I feel obliged however to explicitly outline my own experience in this area where so many people, who have a congenital aversion to anything remotely “conspiratorial”, don’t write Hollie’s case and others like her off so easily. I hope you understand that this is very difficult for me to write about and brings up a lot of complex emotions and memories that I’d rather not have to deal with most of the time.
Hollie’s story was so striking to me because it is so similar to my own family’s experience. From what I can gather, what happened to Hollie also happened to my sister and mother at around the same time, except Hollie was in Scotland and we were in Essex.
My sister (one of) has two severe communicative and emotional impariments. I don’t want to be too specific as I’m not sure how comfortable I feel at the moment with revealing too much identifying information. The problems started after she started going to a special day school that was in another, nearby, town.
As far as I know she was sexually abused repeatedly by several members of staff at the school over an extended period, which ended when my mother withdrew her from the school and refused any access to “social services”. I remember that day because she was really worried about the safety of all of us (myself and my other sisters), so she stopped all of us from going to school that day, which also resulted in various calls and visits from “officials” wishing to allegedly check on our well being. I’m sure some of them were sincere genuine people. Some of them definitely weren’t.
I was still pretty much a kid myself at the time – just reaching that difficult transitionary period of manhood between 16/17 . It was all very difficult for me as I was the man of the house and I remember my heart breaking when I was told that my – impaired – sister had asked if I “was going to be their new dad”.
My mother made allegations of abuse against several staff. She also claimed that she herself had suffered serious physical abuse when she went to the school to confront them. I don’t know how much of the latter was true; subsequent events made it seem much more likely. As I said, I was a confused teenager trying to take in as much as I could and feeling completely impotent about my ability to protect my sisters and mother as “the man of the house”.
Anyway, with the allegations flying and my mother seeking legal recourse, things started to get very scary very fast. She subsequently also alleged that elements of the Essex police force were conspiring to protect the people involved; one of the accused was a JP (female). Again, I don’t know how much of this was true, I still can’t imagine the strain my mother was under, especially with what happened next. Its easy to be a bit more forgiving of people’s occasional liberties with the truth when they are faced against what seems like an overwhelmingly powerful opponent.
The response was an attempt to institutionalise my mother. People, who refused to identify themselves, started phoning other family members and telling them that my mother had been diagnosed as being mentally ill and please could they help, for her own good and ours. Some of the family fell for it and my mother lost a major crutch as it split the adults in two. This fell flat however, they didn’t succeed in institutionalising her and she continued making the allegations and seeking help wherever she could find it (which makes me wonder if the Hollie case is horribly complicated this way – Green might not be an upstanding individual as you suggest Anna, but she might also be all Hollie and mother have).
That’s when the really nasty stuff happened.
Each thing could be explained away as horrible coincidence of course.
We used to keep rabbits. They all suddenly went missing. Then one weekend, about two weeks later, when my mum went to stay with some friends and my dad came over to look after us, I got up in the morning and went out into the garden. Our pets were back. They had had their heads removed and expertly stitched up, with little holes dug in the ground that they were stuffed into, with their back ends sticking out. The local vet cut one of the bodies open to find that parts of it had been cut out and the animal sewn back up again.
It was an amazingly skilled job – I remember pulling the big white rabbit out of the hole and spending a long time examining it, not being able to figure out where its head had gone and having trouble making sense of what I was holding – just a big lump of white furry flesh.
I went back inside to get my dad. This was the part when I actually got scared – my dad was visibly shaken. I’d never ever seen him like that before. And he told me that we had to lie to my sisters to protect them, to tell them that a fox had done this to the rabbits.
The next thing to happen – the most likely to be simple coincidence, but I include it here for completeness and the fact that it was so close to all the other events. I was badly beaten in some nightclub toilets by two men. There was no warning. They both shoved me into a toilet cubicle and beat me until some people came into the toilet and screamed at them to stop. By all accounts, then they walked calmly out of the nightclub. By complete chance I did catch up with one of them a few years ago at a late night coffee shop. I should have asked him some questions. Couldn’t help myself though, I attacked him and then it turned into a full on brawl between my friends and his, and I never saw him again.
Around this time, a friend of the family, a local vicar, took up our cause. A few months later he was found dead, from a heart attack in his car. Again, he’d always had health problems so easy to explain away as horrible coincidence.
Also, one of the teachers at the school took our side and started corroborating my mothers story. He died in a car accident a few weeks later on the way back from the school. His wife tried – unsuccessfully – to pursue a case that his death was suspicious. The police wrote it off as an accident caused by something faulty with the car.
At this point my mother pretty much gave up and just focused on ensuring she could keep my sister safe from further harm, effectively becoming her full time carer, and I think she sent me to Sheffield to get away from it all.
And throughout the whole thing – looking back now – I realise just how I felt, as a kid, on the verge of becoming a young adult. I felt completely impotent and emasculated. It doesn’t have to be a grand – wide reaching – conspiracy. All it takes for this kind of horror is a small group of well placed individuals, with power and influence at their disposal, who all cover eachothers’ backs.
It still hurts me deeply now, I get very teary and emotional whenever I think of my sister and the hell she is trapped in between her conditions on one hand and the puke-inducing cruelty of a coterie of sub-human creatures on the other. Even though I’m fairly assured of my sister’s safety now and have made friends with a lot of naughty people up this end, if this crap ever starts again, this time there will be blood, and lots of it.
So you, and especially some of the self-congratulatory posters responding to this story who “don’t believe in conspiracy theories”, will forgive me if I give the Hollie case a little more consideration.
Katabasis, that is one of the most heart rending and beautifully written responses I have ever seen on a blog anywhere, and I am honoured that you should take the time and the trouble to pen it.
You are very, very, mistaken if you have seen my piece as being ‘self-congratulatory don’t believe in conspiracy theorising’. You could not be further from the truth.
I worked with girls such as this, in just such circusmtances as this, for many, many years. I believe her absolutely. I know how frequently it happens, and how often, as you have pointed out, that it is people outside of the home that they should be able to trust who are the perpetrators.
I worked with one girl whose Father was paralysed. His brother, her uncle, made a point of raping her in front of him. At some point, whether at the time (as I fondly imagine) or in the couple of hours before the Mother returned home, her husband suffered a severe stroke. He was judged mentally incapacitated and unable to give evidence. The girl was mentally unable to give evidence. The brother denied everything of course. I burned with anger at the injustice of it all. I understood the point of law though, and I would not dream of touting that girl round the country publicising her story, identifying her, abusing her all over again – for what?
Of course there are padeophile rings, of course some of the people that are in them are high ranking figures in politics and the law, and yes, if it is legally possible, they should be bought to book.
I disagree violently, forcefully, against either dropping the standard of evidence required in a criminal case on the gounds of an emotive story, and I even more vehemently disagree with using a vulnerable person to make political points in a case where – as a journalist – he should know, there are sound reasons why a prosecution could not go ahead that involve no conspiracy.
I hate to think of what your family went through, it is despicable, and unfortunately, I believe every word that you have said, I have heard too many stories of a similar nature first hand not to. Unless we are going to lower the standard of evidence giving required of a witness, especially in what is essentially a rape case where there is no corroboration, the only other answer is to do what so many families are forced to do, which is to watch their mentally disabled children like hawks.
I cannot tell you how many boxes of kleenex I used to hand out every week to Mothers and Fathers in their seventies and sometimes eighties, who would weep on my shoulder and ask of their adult Down’s Syndrome chidlren ‘what is going to happen to him/her when I’ve gone’? I never did find an answer to that question that didn’t keep me awake at night.
It is a travesty of justice that girls like this are not considered reliable or credible witnesses, but there it is. Fact. Given that fact, what do we want to do next?
We can either change the law so that everyone can be prosecuted on a lower standard of evidence.
Or we can aceept that those with special needs should be far better protected in society than they are.
What we shouldn’t be doing is using these victims for cheap publicity when we know that there cannot be a legal outcome.
“I don
T.P. Fuller,
I am appalled, you are quite right, I have edited my piece. I had not intended to name her.
I am well aware that her name is all over the internet, and I can tell you that I only agreed to let Old Holborn publish that piece on his agreement that he would not illustrate it with a photograph of her, which he has done.
Others may feel comfortable bandying her name around, but I don’t, and I thank you for pointing out my error.
Katabasis — just read yours. You make some excellent points, if I may say so, especially about “a small group of well placed individuals”.
“Do you really want a society where you can find yourself labelled as a child abuser and forced to stand trial in many months time on the basis of an uncorroborated claim from a witness who can only tell the truth
But why suppress the story out of the MSM?
Joe Public,
If you start with the premise that there can be no prosecution under the current rules of credible and reliable witnesses, do you think it is right and proper that such inflamatory accusations should be made in the main stream media when there will be no opportunity to clear your name in court?
Would the promise of compensation for a defamation tort be sufficient to satisfy you if you were named in a newspaper as a paedophile?
Thanks for the personal response & explanation Anna.
Not being ‘a legal eagle’ or Scottish, I don’t know the finer details. However, is the issue of suppression notices common practice, or, has this case touched a raw nerve somewhere special?
I think someone applied a sledgehammer to crush a mushy pea msyelf.
Yes, I suspect it did touch a raw nerve, Robert Green was planning to publicise some mighty impressive names.
Big mistake on their part.
The Streisand effect!
It may well turn out to be the most quoted classic example of the Streisand effect.
Thought provoking and incisive piece; as are the comments. Thank you for the perspective.
So what you are saying is that people are free to abuse disabled children because the law does not value their testimony and therefore cannot represent them. This is must be why this case was not investigated any further than the initial taking of the young woman’s statement because the police have seen it all before and so didn’t bother, knowing they could never build a case (rather than it being something to do with a group of well connected individuals)?
Lilith,
So long as you don’t extend that to mean that I agree with the present situation, that would be a fair summary of the present situation, yes. It is wrong, grossly wrong, but I have yet to hear anyone come up with an alternative that didn’t involve lowering the standard of evidence which would affect everyone.
Hard cases don’t make good law, is an old saying, but very true.
Well, this case seems to have just clarified it for anyone considering abusing a child….make sure they are not a credible witness and it’s game on. I am so naive.
I doubt that you are naive Lilith.
Then neither are padeophiles, which is why they like to hang around children who are vulnerable and don’t make credible witnesses.
It is quite clear that you don’t think it’s ok, Anna. I do however think that cases such as this are worth investigating, even if no trial is ever brought in the end, because children can have a little more protection as a result, even if it is just a little. Example. A young friend of mine was seduced by her foster “father” aged 14. Police said, after investigating, that it was her word against his (he said the child seduced him!) so no case was brought. The foster mother however, believed the child. Social Services believed the child. So no more fostering for that creep. Not much, not justice, but something.
You would have thought that the foster father’s defence of being seduced would have been enough to charge him with unlawful sex if nothing else. He was, after all, in loco parentis.
I am currently living under the threat of a loony woman.
Kids are involved,violence is involved,slander. In fact the whole gamet.
Police,social services and mental health have all be informed of this individual and her behaviour.
The fact they are all useless and are doing nothing does not make me think there is a conspiracy to protect this crank.
Thanks for keeping your head screwed on.
I don’t, however, agree with you that this has been investigated properly. I can see why it might not have been properly investigated, because everyone involved is looking at the end and not the means, but the victim deserves her allegations to be investigated properly. Without a thorough and credible investigation how can the authorities know that they will not find further witnesses/evidence?
My mother was teacher in an “educationally sub normal” school for over 30 years. She taught the infants.
Every year, without fail, she’d spot a Downs girl who couldn’t sit down properly (usually the father) and watch a nigerian 13 year old girl shipped back for a stay “with uncle”.
We live in a very cruel world. I intend to go off grid as fast as I can. I want out.
We have a government whose only goal when it got into power it seems was to legalise old men having sex with 16 year old boys. We have a regular drip of adverts about sex on the radio, designed to have the opposite effect of what they proclaim, they want to debase people and make sex a commodity. Decent married men and good father are ripped from the family on a daily basis, all branded as default abusers. by the state,why?
Because the more lonely frigthened children there are the more for paedophiles to prey on, an paedophiles are very often respectable “professional” people
Ann makes out Hollie and er mum some how are a bit less worthy than if they were professionals or “respectable” a typical slight to make them appear suspect. a usual tactic to some how say, “these humans are a bit down the hierarchy from me so they dont count so much”
this is the cancer that has been unleashed in this country these last few years, I spend my life dedicated to bringing my kids up and keeping them confident and happy this is the best defence against abuse. and yes I was abused, by respectable professional teachers, and no one believed me.
why would robert green lie, hes a man telling the truth
one of the most damaging things thats happened in society this last few years is normal decent adults have to think twice about spending time or being with Kids, theirs and other people. Kids need adult company and involvement. i spend a lot of time with my kids and other peoples because it is the right thing to do.
CRB checks were bought in to drive a wedge between normal people and kids, from te most corrupt decietful immoral government ever to have been in this country. undoubtedly populated by perverts.
The ugly truth is, that these events are far more widespread than most folks realise.
One only has to read through the numbers of cases recorded in Scotland to see that this event is part of a far more extensive system.
Those of you that have asserted that Hollie is vulnerable and should not be exploited are demonstrating an ignorance of the will and determination of victims of these crimes. As such assertions that this case along with all related matters should be publicly exposed is tantamount to condoning the unacceptable.
Consider also, the numbers of victims that never go to the police for fear of the way they will be treated. Indeed it seems that this sickness is embedded within the very institutions that were put into place to prevent such vile acts.
As for any derogatory references to conspiracy theories, you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves. I have yet to encounter a single individual that makes such statements that has the capacity to assist in the provision of the remedies by enabling our society to obtain full disclosure over matters that effect each & every one of us.
The entire system is broken & the numbers of ordinary people suffering throughout the world increasing exponentionally by an establishment that increasingly is encouraging the insanity of population control.
This matter will not fall back into the murky waters of this corporatocracy and I for one, will do all in my power to ensure that justice & decency are served.
Been thinking about how the message of Jesus Christ relates to this story. I think to those of us enraged at the injustice of it all he would say that someday very soon there will be a day of judgement and that nothing is forgotten. (All that stuff about vengence and wrath did not die with the Old Testament, you know).
To the victims of sexual abuse he would say that he is not a God removed from your pain, but one who was stripped naked and tortured to death. He would say “come to me, and you will find rest and peace for your soul”. I’m not speaking theoretically here. I’ve known some very damaged people transformed by His presence (took some time, mind).
You might think that’s too simplistic, an easy way out or an abdication of responsibility. Quite the opposite – if there’s the possibility of getting a conviction – great, but ultimately God is going to judge. And not just peodophiles and rapists, but all of us self-righteous bloggers angry at the world (yep, me as well).
The only way I can hope to stand on that day is by lettiing Him be judge, and by placing my faith in Jesus Christ, who has already taken the punishment that was mine by rights and given me in it’s place His wholeness and peace. That’s not an easy thing to do, to trust somebody who loves you completely. But it’s as perfect a system of salvation as I can imagine.
I tell you what, it’s the only way I can stay anywhere near to reality.
Peace.
Michael
Anna,
From your writings I detect that you are highly sexualised, therefore I have the right to repeatedly force myself inside you, and share you with my friends who wish to do the same. We will do this for many years. Should you object, will
How does a Down’s child’s sex drive have relevance?
Easy.
Down’s children can have high or low sex drives, as with any other child, however….
Down’s children are exceptionally tactile, they like to touch you, pat your arm, hold your hand, in a way that other children may be too reserved or shy to do.
They like to smile and make those around them smile, they are exceptionally eager to please.
They display less inhibitions regarding their own bodies and may openly engage in behaviour that is viewed as sexual by observers where another child might be more secretive.
There are men who are happy to take these outward signs as an indication that the advances they have made towards ‘this’ child, as opposed to another child, are welcomed and that therefore it is quite acceptable to use them as a sexual plaything.
What I said was that Down’s children were disproportionately represented amongst sexually abused children, I did not offer any apologies whatsoever for the scum that do this.
Understanding what it is about Down’s children which makes them so vulnerable to abuse is not apologising for that abuse.
Understanding what it is about Down’s children which makes it so difficult for them to give evidence is not apologising for that abuse.
I do not forget that this girl was repeatedly abused. I rage with anger over it.
The fact that I don’t want to see her further abused by being paraded around conference halls, discussed, identified, picked apart on internet forums, yes, and even drooled over in some quarters, make no mistake, when I recognise the limitations of the law in offering justice to her, is not an apology for the scum that did this, it is a recognition that she is highly vulnerable, that even her own Mother choses to follow her own inclinations rather than giving her daughter the privacy that she deserves.
I recognise that the law as it stands cannot give her justice. I don’t think that situation is improved by making her some sort of poster girl for a campaign.
You can rant and rail all you want, have a full public inquiry, pore over every last detail, arrest half of Scotland, fill an entire forest full of newspapers with her picture, and at the end of the day, you will still be faced with the problem of putting her in the witness stand, where she will not be the reliable and credible witness that our justice system demands. Truthful, yes, but to the best of her cognitive ability.
You will not secure a conviction. What good will you have done her?
Meanwhile, behind furtive computer screens, up and down the land, pathetic inadequate men who dream of the chance to force themselves on a willing smiling child who will not know how to complain, will have been drooling over her image and murmuring her name. Who will protect her then, when the entire world of paedophilia knows her name, recognises her in the street, knows which town she lives in?
If it makes you happy to applaud the antics of the would-be politician who has done this, then you are sicker than I thought.
I have no doubt this will be removed!
Those who excuse and blatantly stand up for such individuals are as much guilty and in my eyes…supporters of psedophilla! Sick indeed!
You are not a critical thinker or conducting non judgemental anaylisis, you are a cynic sticking up for some of your own and looking for back rubs off your peers in way of comments!
Good Day
Why would your comment be removed Shill R us?
Do you think that non-libellous free expression should only contain one point of view?
So let me get this straight. You say in all likelihood she was probably abused. Therefore I guess you’d concur her story is true. Her story also points to certain members including a policeman were involved later on in this abuse. If she didn
claim from a witness who can only tell the truth
Anna
You are missing the point entirely. I agree, this girl should not be “paraded” etc, but the allegations are that those that abused her hold senior positions of office within the UK. She is the victim, they are the perpetrators. They should be exposed if so guilty. They should face the same public humiliation as any child sex offender does. Your post and subsequent comments, to me, suggest you would prefer nothing was said about it, for the sake of the victim. Well no. That let’s the scum fucks who did it, off. I’m not having that. No fucking way. You also mention the behaviour traits of those with Down’s. Yes I agree, they are loving and doting, hug you all the time, but trusting to a fault. That us what really sickens me by all this. It is pure trust and love that was abused by those fucking evil bastards. The rape of one of our most innocents (or mongs as Old Fuckwit likes to call such people).
I do not know this girl or her family. I do however have an interest. All I can say is if anything like that happened involving my close family member, there would be no police complaint, charges nor trial. Justice would be served with a sharpened stick and a mallet.
I apologise for the language, but this topic has hit a nerve.
Phil Free,
If my post suggests to you that nothing should be done, then you are very wrong.
My arguement was with the delight of the blogosphere at hailing Robert Green a hero without blemish.
I absolutely agree that the allegations should be investigated. However, they are only allegations at this stage, allegations made by someone who both the Grampian police and the Shropshire police came to the conclusion was able to give evidence to a civil standard, not a criminal standard.
That being so, there is a problem with publicaly identifying alleged perpetrators. You are subjecting them to trial by internet with no possibility of clearing their name. However sickening the charge, that is not a precedent I can applaud in the name of due process.
You are happy to say ‘they are the perpetrators’ – I say ‘someone is the perpetrator’ and I don’t applaud those who would seek to have named individuals tried by mob rule becasue their main witness is unable to undertake due process in a criminal case.
I really don’t support them identifying and parading the victim becasue they believe that they alone hold the truth to this matter and that any other version ‘must’ be a conspiracy.
I also agree with you that faced with the same situation, and understanding the limits of the criminal law system to bring justice, I too would resort to sharpened stick and mallet, not only that, I would be quite happy to defend anyone who did so.
Anna,
I am surprised you feel that the powerful people who hold positions of authority in the police and justice systems of Scotland, assuming they are innocent victims of slander (poor souls), would be unable to seek justice for themselves. At least one of them has, after all, been using the legal services of Levy and McRae, an extremely large, successful, and, in some circles, feared, legal company. Assuming that Robert Green is making “wild accusations” which cannot be proven, why haven’t they openly defended themselves instead of getting their lawyer hounds to threaten every major news company in Scotland should they dare to mention it? But of course, they’ve got NOTHING to hide. That must be why they’re trying so hard to hide it.
You write as though Robert Green has no evidence and has been simply making unfounded claims. This is not true; had you paid attention to his video presentations, you would have noted that he has written proof which back the claims he is making. I would also reiterate a comment made above, that Downs syndromes sufferers find it difficult or impossible to lie. They also lack the ability to “block out” painful and traumatic memories in the way most non-sufferers can. This makes the young woman in question an extremely reliable witness. Perhaps you should have explored the facts more carefully before slandering those who are seeking justice for an innocent victim.
Finally, as Katabasis’s harrowing statement above shows, this is not an isolated case. Thousands of children are abused in the government care system. Yes, those who are charged with caring for such children do actually subject them to horrific abuse the likes of which most of us are fortunate in being unable to imagine. This is not the first time children who attend special-needs schools have been abused, either. If you are serious about investigating this properly then I suggest you look into the links raised by Anne Isherood above. Given the seriousness of the topic — child abuse — how can you do any less?
I cannot judge your motives but you do not appear to have done sufficient research to justify publishing your opinion piece as if you had all the facts.
I think your blog is just about as pathetic as your reasoning with the skimpy facts you’re choosing to feature to display your callous “opinion”. You are a disgrace just as same as people that claim for every rape victim that “she asked for it”. All this for writing a “good story” without doing a decent research which would actually tell you that right now you’re mocking genuine victim(s), for the sake of stirring some discussion on your crappy blog page – how sad is that. All that intellect and for what, self promoting? Displaying mental superiority over underdogs and unprotected mentally disabled? You are absolutely sick person, and waste of space. Have a nice life if you can, I hope life puts you into similar situation where you’re denied justice for years, intimidated bu authority on every step, laughed at, declared mentally unstable, tried to get bribed for years of agony with pocket money – just so you learn to empathize with people who are not “on your level” (whatever gutter your level may be).
What a curious attack, Dalai Lada! Anna said nothing of the kind, she merely pointed out the facts as they stand. She certainly didn’t say she agreed with it!
Hmmmm having read a very eloquent and detailed response by Ms Racoon one is struck with the impression that it was a very skilful attempt to slur Mr Green nay the whole story? It also, took the victim and also slurred her and her ability to tell what had happened to her by inferring that she, being of Down Syndrome must have the same highly sexual desires of all the other down syndrome? Would that be both boys and girls?
So the MSM are happy to ‘report’ the sexual conquests of sporting figures and devote many hours of air time, news (obviously using this word very loosely) papers, TV and radio. But, any attempt to get this allegation onto MSM outlets seems to be impossible (I and many other have contacted the UK MSM outlets and MP’s and to date have had 1 response from the BBC advising me if I have a complaint that it should be addressed to that dept? – But I didn’t complain just asked a question?). So you have the young woman and the mother trying to get this out willingly (So if it happened 5-10yrs ago it isn’t still valid?), my advise would be to go straight to Max Cliford as he doesn’t seem to have any trouble getting tits and ass on MSM display? Do you know how many world-wide MSM outlets there that not controlled by 5 privately own companies? Do you know what a D Notice is? Why in a free and democratic (mob rule)society would we adults need one of these to protect us, National Security? Ah, but it isn’t is it, its all about the protection of that Rabbit Hole of corruption/evil that allows these and other world incidents of this nature to go unheard in the MSM.
To qualify my World Wide Abuse claims at the top level you might want to google John DeCamp and the Franklin coverup.
“I really don
“Grampian police and the Shropshire police came to the conclusion was able to give evidence to a civil standard, not a criminal standard”
Anna,
Please explain the arrest, on criminal charge, of Robert Green. You being of in posession of a superior legal mind, allegedly. Please explain why his welfare was not for discussion by the Grampian Police swichboard though all others in custody could be inquired about? Please fucking explain why they couldnt even confirm his arrest, yet were happy to confirm other arrests? Why did they tell me “I’ll have to wait for news” when inquiring about the man? AND why, more worryngly, did my local plod visit me shortly after I made the calls? (just to check an emergency call they received, you understand….)
No D-notice? No fucking D-notice? You and Old Skidmark have got this very very fucking wrong.
You, and your mate Old Holborn are naive in the fullest.
An excellent piece Anna and I thank you for it. Since this story ‘broke’ some time ago now, I was very uncomfortable with the exposure the young person was receiving from those close to her. I also appreciate your description of those affected by Downs Syndrome. You will know DS varies in grade and I would suggest the young woman is ‘high grade’ – I suspect in these politically correct days there will be a more complex qualification – and happy to concur with those around her and like you, I believe she is telling the truth as she knows it.
It is a dreadful tragedy for any child to be sexually abused and one who would be slightly more trusting than most, shows us that we live in a world where there is a black side which has existed for centuries.
I bet if this was you or any of your family had been abused you would understand the silence and covering up of such crimes has been going on for years. Look at the revelations that is going on in Ireland with the catholic priests who were protected and allowed to abuse innocent children for 40yrs before anyone listened or did anything about it. … See moreBecause Robert is a journalist he is sensationalising this story for his own ends.. He is one of abuse victims saviours if he didnt expose this who would. All i can say is Robert keep up the good work. Abuse victims everywhere in this world need people like you. To make ordinary people aware that our laws only protect the offenders and NOT the victims.
I’ve looked at several sites which have comments relating to this matter and some posters have questioned Rob Green’s integrity and/or ability to properly deal with this issue. Well, I know Rob very well and consider him to be a man of great intelligernce, integrity and bravery, who is willing to stick his head above the parapet for causes he feels important. Indeed, the Hollie Greig case is not the only one he has campaigned on.
His candidacy for Aberdeen South isn’t because he is hungry for power and nor is he using Hollie as a cause celebre to further his own ends. Had he ever sat down with me and expressed a desire to get into politics for any selfish or cynical reason, I would have advised him to pick an easier way: standing as a mainstream candidate or a different issue.
And, yes, I’m biased in Rob’s favour, as most friends are. So when you weigh up my comments, bear this in mind.
256 shades of grey…
Why are there vitriolic comments aimed at Anna? She does not support wrong-doers. She merely pointing out why this sordid affair is complicated.
What Mr Green is doing is admirable, certainly, but there is no guarantee as to where the truth lies. If there was, we wouldn’t be talking about it.
Would you put the victim on the stand, take the names, and hang em high?
What if your name was called out? Or someone you knew was innocent?
What if the victim wasn’t handicapped? Would that make a difference?
@ Maria
It sounds as if, if Anna was around in Ireland 40 years ago, she’d be saying the exact same things about anyone trying to speak up about that abuse that she says about Robert Green in this blog.
She never did answer the question of why the police didn’t bother to interview other victims who said they were abused. Doing so doesn’t help her smear Robert, y’see.
Quick test – tried to post 6 times
Anna, I found your pages to be a refreshing trying-to-be-well-balanced read after some of the rantings of the ‘tin-foil’ hat brigade elsewhere. However, for your record, to the best of my knowledge:
1) Robert Green is not, nor has never claimed to be, a _legal_ advisor. Indeed he is pretty ignorant when it comes to the law, especially Scottish law. He is an ordinary man who I think came into contact with
R,
What an excellent reasoned comment. Thank-you.
You make some good points.
It was the blogosphere that had repeatedly called Robert Green a legal advisor, where they got that idea from or who started that particular myth rolling I know not, I merely sought to correct it.
I had said repeatedly, ad nauseum, that I believe the girl was abused, I have never had a problem with that aspect, and the medical evidence certainly corroborated it.
Where I have misgivings is on the issue of whether the problem is no one else believing her – which I don’t think is so, the Detective Inspector certainly backed her compensation claim, he would not have done that if he disbelieved that she had been abused. The question is by whom.
Or whether the problem is that the police recognised that she would not meet the standard required for criminal proceedings against named individuals. We simply don’t know the answer to that, nor should we, it is confidential information.
To make the leap from ‘not knowing the answer’ to ‘it must be a conspiracy to protect certain individuals’ is a large leap. To take that leap and convince yourself that you are absolutely sure of the answer and then conduct a trial by internet and youtube is mob rule.
The outrage is caused by the fact that senior police investigation failed to question the suspects according to procedure.
There is no mention in this article of the fact of Hollies uncle mysteriously committing suicide or the fact that the BBC ordered their agents off the case.
I lawful procedure was followed there would be scandal if the suspects were innocent.
So far we only have Mr Greens word that the BBC cancelled / pulled out of filming etc. (That is if they were interested in the first case.)
Perhaps we could see some form of contract / correspondence from Mr Green regarding the BBCs intention to make a program.
You tried, you tried, and you lied you lied, the truth is out there, we are opening our eyes, and it
An excellent hatchet job, Anna. Grampian Police will be pleased. Articles like yours only help to release the pressure being put on by the blogosphere who are acting without support from the MSM.
This is as fine a post as I have read for some time.
I am shocked at the rank stupidity and personal nastiness of some of the comments on here. It is almost as if they refused to read what Anna actually wrote. Mr Knee, allow me to introduce Mr Jerk.
Either that or Anna Raccoon is one of the world running lizards buffing up her power structure on a foundation of paedophile rings. I also have it on good authority that Anna put the thermite in the Towers.
“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.” Depressing.
If it hadn’t of been for those pesky kids, she would have got away with it.
One or two posters on other sites have concluded that the use of the libel laws – or at least letters advising that libel has been committed – is de facto proof that there is no substance to the allegations surrounding this case.
When considering this point, please bear in mind that the UK is the libel capital of the world and many a story has been left unpublished, or apologised for after having been printed, because publishers decide that they cannot afford to contest a libel action. Even if you succesfully defend a libel action, you can be left out of pocket and even if the material is 95% accurate you can still lose. In the latter example, the damages may be low, but the lawyers’ fees are the thing that can cripple you.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qps87/Science_on_Trial/
An interesting insight into the workings of the U.K libel system for anyone who is seeking to understand how the whole system is being ‘used’.
Further to my recent posts. I would like to clarify my position, vis-avis this issue. I believe that healthy debate is a good thing and it’s perfectly legitimate for people to ask: “Where is the evidence? Did things really happen this way? What other reasons could there be for the authorities to have acted in such a way?” Nor was it my intention to disparage other posters on this forum.
My concern with my first post was to establish that Rob is a man of great integrity and courage and that his motives in this are beyond reproach. My second post was to suggest that people consider that the use of the libel laws is not, in and of itself, a reason to dismiss a story out of hand. The same degree of thought should still be applied to a matter.
This is only my third post on this forum, but like other forums I have been on – on different subjects – people can become heated and write things they wouldn’t necessarily say. As a newbie, can I suggest that we’re all entilted to disagree with a post?
Let’s face it, the English libel system, where defendants have to prove that they haven’t defamed the plaintiff, rather than vice-versa, sucks the big one – it does, however, make a lot of money for the Carter-Rucks of this world (alledgedly). See flies, see jobbies.
“what a patronising cynical quote youve dragged out there , although it does serve to confirm the atmosphere round here.”
I can’t help feeling when people willfully disregard what has been said in favour of what they wish to argue against then the patronisation is entirelly appropriate. Am I meant to rejoice in the fact that such minds are attached to votes that can affect my life?
As for cynical, like I say, depressing. I don’t wish to be cynical, I would much rather be congratulating people for erudition. As for the source, blame WSC.
What a contradictory set of writing.
The best part was sadly in the comments section when you responded to someone who gave their story. You appeared to backtrack immensely but then slipped back into the zone again.
So, you believe 100% the girl was abused. If this is the case then why on earth would she lie about the names. You mention not being able to successfully prosecute. What a sham. Does that mean we should just move on to the next kid who has been raped but has a better chance of standing up to scrutiny.
And if you had bothered to spend any time at Hollie’s blog, you would have likely noticed many more details to back up the accusations. And you have not once mentioned Angiolini, who could be seen as key in this case. She even has history where covering for Scottish paedophiles is concerned.
Bad form. Very bad.
I forgot to mention, that to me, Robert Green’s reasons for standing are incredibly clear, to expose this rotten evil lot. To accuse him of ulterior motives is disgusting.
glosman wrote:
“So far we only have Mr Greens word that the BBC cancelled / pulled out of filming etc. (That is if they were interested in the first case.)
Perhaps we could see some form of contract / correspondence from Mr Green regarding the BBCs intention to make a program.”
I entirely agree with this. I believe a BBC journalist mentioned by Green, Mark Daly, to be a good journalist. Green alleges Daly called him saying the story was off because he and others had been warned off by “higher ups.” Frankly, I don’t believe it. If the BBC did investigate , I believe it more likely that the BBC journalists came to the same conclusion as Anna – that this story was going nowhere, that there was a serious lack of evidence against those accused.
Wouldn’t the result on the BBC thing have been the same regardless? If the BBC pulled the plug because the legal team had decided they couldn’t run it, it’s perfectly in keeping with Mark Daly saying something like ‘I’m sorry Robert, we believed H and yourself and thought we had a program we could run with here but the big bosses say ‘no”.
Again, the big question here is why were none of the people the girl originally accused even interviewed? Why was her father not prosecuted? Why (when that is where he fled/relocated) were the Portuguese police not informed to follow up his whereabouts after the MM disappearance ?
Incidentally, Robert Green didn’t widely disseminate the information and/or his option about it to the internet – nor is he responsible for, as Anna puts it, this blogosphere “trial by internet and youtube”. If you do some digging you’ll soon see Mr. Green was not the individual/s who recorded nor posted the video of his talks.
I thought that the point that was being made is that the serious lack of evidence against those accused might have had something to do with the serious lack of investigation for such evidence in the first instance.
Hafa Adai! Mr. Green,
I am a lady of the island of Guam. I am looking for a Mr. Green, that use to work here in the Island of Guam. I will explain if you are the Green that I may be looking for. The Mr. Green that I know or heard of work at KUAM in the year of 1955-59. Please advise. Thanking you in advance and looking forward to hearing from you.
Hope that this message you would recieved and respond to it.
There seems to be many instances of the phrase ‘i believe’ here… surely what each of us chooses/wants to ‘believe’ is irrelevant… Robert Green claims to have in his possession ‘evidence’ & this is the reason he asks us all to support re-investigation of this matter.
The author of this piece is guilty of making the very same rash & uninformed judgements she so foolishly accuses others of.
Me thinks…. Anna is a man !!! Who also, replies to his own posts.
A very strange strange man who is hiding because he is very ill.
Marjorie,
If you were a regular around here, you would know that Ms Raccoon is all woman……and definitely not given to hiding!
The most vexing aspect of this case is the presumption that a person with mental-health problems must needs be telling the truth. I for one do not understand this line of reasoning. Legal tradition requires that witnesses be ‘of sound mind’ -and this time-honoured principle is overturned only at great risk of injustice being done.
It appears that Green is allowing emotional considerations over protecting ‘special needs’ individuals to take precedence over the application of logic.
I daresay it is difficult to know exactly what to do when faced with a preposterous but very serious accusation from a person of unsound mind. Yet, I think we have to recognise that her accusation, if acted-upon in a spirit of hysterical ‘crusading’ for her rights, can do tremendous damage to a great number of people, all of whom may be innocent of any crime. In fact, her accusation can damage the interests not only of those she has accused, but also the interests of every special-needs individual, since the risk of such accusations will drive members of the public to avoid contact with all such persons in future.Thus, they will become even greater social outcasts than at present.
Bottom line is, we need to stop the hysteria, put-on our Holmes or Poirot hats, and assess the evidence methodically. If we conclude there is insufficient evidence, or that the accuser is not fit to testify, then there is no case to answer. If so, we should leave it at that. Furthermore, if Green is not prepared to heed this salutary advice, then the sheriff is right to take action.
I would be interested in hering the authors view on the subject of diminished ability to tell the truth, these people have directly contradicted the Authors claim about Down syndrom sufferes ot being able to tell the truth. This seems central in her ability as a witness, the author has answered other questions, but (to the best of my ability at this late hour) I have looked and no answer has been forthcoming, if it turns out there is one, then apologies.
I’ve not been able to verify one way or the other online. If it’s common knowledge it’s hard to find where its commonly held.
From what I read, a pivotal item in the case is a doctor’s report stating that the girl’s condition effectively renders her incapable of lying, and gives her a greater recall of historical events than a typical person. I too can find no independent medical opinion supporting this, most sites state that Down’s Syndrome often results in ‘cognitive difficulties’ -Which hardly suggests greater accuracy of recall.
The issue with most mental-health sufferers, in any event, is not whether they are capable of telling the truth. Mostly they are. The issues are whether they are prone to confabulation (fantasies which seem real to them) and/or whether they understand that telling lies to a court (perjury) is considered unacceptable by society. For most of us, the threat of a long jail term if we’re ‘rumbled’ while perjuring is sufficient to persuade us to tell the truth, but a mentally-impaired individual may see that as an extremely unlikely outcome. (and they are probably right, society wouldn’t do that) Therefore, the deterrent to lying is far weaker in their case.
In any criminal investigation, we need to take motive into account. Now, it is entirely possible that her father abused her. The evidence, if anything, points toward this being true. Yet, even though this could not be proven to the standard required for a prosecution, she was granted 13,500 in compensation on the basis of an unproven allegation. So, a big payout is possible even without satisfactory proof. Add to this that even in the event of the complete failure of the case, she is extremely unlikely to face a legal backlash.
This is the point where I start to have doubts about what is going-on here. Perhaps the CICB should think carefully about this aspect of their work. By giving handouts in respect of failed cases, are they fostering a culture of preposterous and unprovable allegations made purely for the sake of compensation-payouts? If so, then they are doing immense harm to society, rather than good.
This is a biased load of rubbish,and its clear to see whos side you are on. Corrections to certain lies.
a} Green states clearly who are the assailants to the mother when they drugged her via injection when they pounced on her after they invited them into her house. You havent done much research. b} many other witnesses, over a dozen, corroborate Hollies accusations about members assaulting them being the same as assaulted her. c} im sure the government concerned would not fork out
Butlincat.
The compensation was paid because there was medical evidence that she had been abused. No one is disputing that. It was not required that there be any evidence of who abused her.
You cannot claim that because she has had compensation that this is some offical compensation as to who abused her.
Two entirely different matters – one civil, one criminal.
You think
” think someone applied a sledgehammer to crush a mushy pea msyelf.”
I find this an appalling thing to say about as serious a subject as one can get,and its amazing how you are trivialising it.
This is one of the worst blogs ive ever seen, and im sure you should be investigated too with these views of trying to belittle and make paedophilia in our governments and elite a casual everyday acceptable thing. IT IS NOT. Do some research instead of condoning these heinous
crimes and saying Green is exagerrating and talking crap. You should be ashamed of yourself. Youve probably never heard of Johnny Gosch.
Butlincat: I have removed your libellous link. I would also point out that nowhere in my article have I mentioned mushy peas or sledgehammers.
Kindly learn to read before you comment.
Ok I think I have read enough.
What do you propose that I should do if my child tells me that her Daddy and his friends have been abusing her? What if there is evidence that she has been abused (as you admit there is in this case). What if her Daddy’s friend is Gordon bloody Brown? What if my daughter gets compensation but the police refuse to investigate the case so I KNOW these people are still at large and STILL RAPING CHILDREN???
What if I know and believe what my daughter is saying – not because she is Down’s or ‘normal’ or anything like that. What if I just believe her because she is my daughter and I love her? What do you propose? You propose that I give up, that I find the system so impenatrable that I accept the compensation and I do not try to find justice for my daughter in any way I can. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CRAZY.
Motherof2,
No, I do not propose that. Nor did the police ‘refuse to investigate the case’. The Detective Inspector in particular was very supportive of Hollie.
You are angry that the police haven’t interviewed the people you wish to see interviewed, that is not the same as saying that they haven’t investigated the case.
However, under these circumstances, were you to propose turning your vulnerable daughter into a travelling side show to be the answer to the problem, I should certainly believe that you were crazy.
I don’t believe that the Mother has done that at all. Maybe she felt so threatened and scared, maybe her only option was to go public in such a way that if anything ever happened to her or her daughter there would be an outcry. Have you considered that? She is not a ‘travelling side show’.
I could not sleep at night if I knew there were people out there being allowed to continue to rape children. Paedophiles rely on attitudes such as yours, hoping that the family and victim will be too ‘ashamed’ or that people will be quiet to ‘spare the victim’. This is how they get the opportunity to carry out their vile crimes, paired with the poor justice system of course. Yes I am angry that the people this girl named were not interviewed, No one is above the law in this country (supposedly) and there is a lot more that could have been done. You, Ms Raccoon, are obviously not a Mother. You have no idea what you are talking about.
What a confused, soulless piece of writing. The people who are standing up for H. and (quite rightly) challenging the way this was handled (and why those accused have not been investigated) are being treated with more contempt by you than those who were accused. By suggesting that she’s being ‘used’ in some way shows just how detached from the real world you are. She’s had her payoff – should she just shut up now? this girl was raped and abused. FACT. She named the people responsible and I can guarantee if they weren’t in positions of power this would have gone VERY differently.
The people accused are more than capable of defending themselves, so let them.
MaDamn, excellent post.
Yes MaDamn, this is a brilliant break down of a truly cold and cynical piece of writing. I think the writer has back tracked so much in her comments that she is off to rewrite the original piece.
Anna, you rather sickeningly confuses Down’s kids being affectionate with being ‘highly sexed’. You have also specatcularly missed the point about the case: that it was not properly investigated as none of the other alleged victims were ever interviewed. You also inocrrectly make claims that Downs children are less capable as witnesses, whereas in fact it is their capacity to lie that is diminished, thereby making them excellent witnesses.
But well done in doing the abusers work for them. It is because people like you wrongly put it about that they are not credible, that the abusers will continue to target the most vulnerable because people like you will dismiss their testimony.
Oh, and the only reason Green is standing at all is to push this case into the spotlight. What was that about smearing people?
Katabasis nails it with his heart-wrenching post. How easy it is to threaten single mothers with Downs kids.
Im shocked that you still hold these foul views Anna…appauled.
Appalled*
I’m so glad the comments here have shown this blog post for what it is. Confused and nasty.
Only one conclusion can be drawn from this outrageous piece. The raccoon is either a paedophile or a supporter of those who are. Quite incredible how information is twisted to suit an agenda.
Ms Raccoon is neither a paedophile, nor a paedophile supporter.
She is, however, a supporter of free speech and the right of you – and herself – to say their piece within libel laws.
I was under the impression that you were against the silencing of Robert Green, yet you do not think I should have the right to free speech.
I am a supporter of the rule of law, not mob rule, that is what you find so difficult to understand.
I will let this post stand, but in future, please attack the argument, I do not allow personal abuse of myself or other posters.
If you wish to show why the rule of law should be abandoned, please do, I am more than ready to listen to your argument.
Anna Racoon – plenty of posters have demolished your appalling post with reasoned argument. Next time, may I suggest you actually bother to research the issue you are writing about. Perhaps you could pause for thought before smearing someone who is campaigning for an investigation into appalling sexual abuse? And maybe next time you might resist the urge to suggest that a six year old Down’s kid is “highly sexed” and can’t be trusted as a witness.
You deserve all the opprobrium you have received on this occasion. An acknowledgement of some of your serious errors of judgement would be a start.
The thing that worries me about issues like this is not so much whether there is any truth in the claims, but that it is dangerous to even discuss them in public, because doing so brings-down attacks upon your own head.
Not that this is anything new. In mediaeval times, many people who criticized the witch-hunts as mass-hysteria were themselves hanged, even though there was never any question of those critics having practiced witchcraft. Pointing-out that the witch-hunters might just have been mistaken was in itself enough to result in condemnation as a public enemy.
I was going to write a further treatise on this issue (and yes, I have done my research!) but instead -and in view of the above- I think I’ll let history speak for itself. After all, it has a well-known propensity for repeating itself:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/salem.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic
Stick to the facts of this case and there would be no need for any mention of witch hunting or anything like it. We are fed information through the ‘media’ every day which would lead us to believe that our Government is doing everything to protect children from paedophiles. We are told that our police are there to protect us and our families. All we are asking is for the people accused to be questioned, along with their children who were alleged victims. Of course the police know this would open one large can of worms and this is exactly why it did not happen. Ms Raccoon said in her article that Robert Green was using this case for personal gain, a statement which is verging on libelous itself. How dare she go on about the rights of the accused and try to persecute the one man who listened? If those who have been named feel so bloody persecuted then they should sue and clear their names. With all their power and prestige one has to wonder why they have not done just that.
I first encounted this “case” this morning on a Facebook site, and have since followed many links, seen the net presentations of Mr Green, and ready other blogs and articles.
I can well imaging the resoning from lawyers of all sides against putting this unfortunate girl in the witness box and subjecting her to a cross examinantion, I certainly wouldn’t do it. Her mother as, a witness, can only repeat or confirm what was related to her by her daughter.
Many correspondants has repeatedly asked why the police have not followed up the investigation by interviewing the twenty four or so people, alleged victims and perpertrators, named by the victim.
My question is, how did she know the names of theses people and how was she able to identify them, and the house where some of the attacks took place. (apart from her own father of course) Did she simply just know, and told the police directly in her statements to them, or was it a result of investigation by the police, or private investigators?.
The question as to where and how this “evidence” was obtained is very important, was it coerced, or drawn out of her, was she shown photographs, were names sugested to her , or did she just freely recite names, and knew who these people are?
The Father was interviewed, but not arrested, although it seems there is proof that she was abused, the assumption here is that the police did not have any other evidence to cooberate her accusation.
He, it is reported, has absconded to Portugal, and has not been further questioned, nor have the authorities there been informed about him.
My advice is “Follow the money” , how are Mr Denis Charles Mackie and his brother Greg supporting themselves in Portugal, are they laying around on beaches all day sunning themselves, or is they struggling to support themselves, if it is the former, I would ask , who is financing them or paying them to keep quiet? they are of course are potential key witnesses.
Who is financing Mr Green? All his trips across the country and his public appearances cost money and time, does he pay for this out of his own pocket, is there a fund supporting the family that pays the expences, or are any charitable organisations providing funds?.
This reason I ask , is to find out is there a “Hidden Agenda” here, or is Mr Green working purely for selfless reasons? .
Any Sunday newspaper reporter worth his salt could easily obtain much more information about the Mackies, and could publish without breaking any legal bann imposed in Scotland because the Mackies have not, as far as I know, taken any legal action in this case.
By concentrating on the weaker links, including the untimely death of the victims uncle, that are not subject to any banns, Mr Green could keep his cause alive for a long time, and maybe even provide some real evidence that could be used in court. Should Mr Green’s activities in the direction I have suggested, also suddenly become the subject of a court ban on reporting, that would of course support his claim of a conspiracy .
Is there anywhere a fund supporting this case ? If not I suggest that those supporters of this case and Mr Green set one up immediatly, and get some more good private investigators on the case of the Mackies , and the “Murder/suicide” side development.
I have not taken any sides in this case at all, not sure who to believe or not,that a ham fisted cover up is in operation is fact, but most conspericy theories start of because of this.
As to comments on the blog itself, I think most distractors have already made a good case
As a footnote, I would add that a wikipedia page refering to this case has recently been deleted, nor can I find Hollie’s blog anymore, and I see from other sites that referances to this case have been removed for notice boards on most Scotish newspapers , and in one case files removed from achives
What were you trying to accomplish with this piece?
You have merely illustrated that you’re a poor man’s Jan Moir.
The best one can say about this article is that it helps to get the case to a broader audience.
To acknowledge the abuse but at the same time defend the authorities although no other witness was heard is an approach I do not understand.
You are either supporting abused children or not. There is no middle of the road.
Methinks Ms Raccon is losing her footing here.
Her last comment was to say that the rule of law must be followed at all costs.
However I’m sure there are many who would disagree with that especially in light of recent MP’s expenses scandals which clearly show that doing things within the exact letter of the law is not necessarily acceptable to most normal right thinking people.
When it comes to cases as serious as this one perhaps the law does need to be looked at again.
In situtations like these my compass is always to imagine how Ms Racoon would react if something similar happened to her. I certain her stance would differ.
Do Raccoons revolt? This one does, and not in the positive way. Pro-Establishment TOSH
As quoted at the Nuremburg War Trials:
“All that is necessary for the victory of evil is that good men do nothing.”
- Edmund Burke (1729 – 1797)
Listen, listen listen……
We are all being cuaght up in the small detail of what is known about this case, we are forgetting that there is more to this case than the abuse it’s self…. what about the murder (sorry) the suicide of the uncle who caught the father at it…..
to0 much cover up here… And come on guys the world is not what it seems… so the (trying to be nice) people (if they deserve such title) who come out with statements such as “The David Icke school of thought” really need to do research on world issues the are not censored, David Icke gets critised far to much, for what for bring issues that need to be discussed out into the open….
so for the Murdoch followers and the my politician isn’t corrupt believers, piss of back to fairy tale land….
there is something wrong with this world…. and it’s the truth seekers who are persicuted….. or we could do what most of the above do and sit on our arses and do nothing, doesn’t involve me so I am not intrested attitute.
YAWN
BRING OUT THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!
You all talk crap ! Justice for Hollie Greig and her Mum !
This is rapidly turning into a justice for Robert Green case now as well.
He has recently been arrested again, for supposedly breaching his bail, and was driven to Aberdeen and held in jail (and again not allowed to make outside contact) until he had another ‘in camera’ hearing. The police have still not returned the items taken from his home in Cheshire and he has to report to a police station 3 times a week (which is pretty severe for a ‘breach of the peace’) and now I believe a condition of his bail is that he is not allowed to talk to any press where the article may be viewed in Scotland.
He got his publicity though by standing for the Aberdeen Election (which I think is quite canny).
)
http://www.scotsman.com/news/General-Election-2010-Wannabe-MP.6241067.jp
Regardless of the paedophile issue surely the law is allowed to do this and then try to silence anyone on it’s procedures in doing so?
Hi to all,
I am not normaly one for disseminating my views across the internet preferring instead to read others points of view as i have read all of the posts on this blog tonight.
I arrived here because tonight i watched a television programme that filled me with horror,disturbed me and left me feeling incredibly sad.
I refer to ‘on the edge’ hosted by Theo Chalmers and broadcast on sky channel 200(controversial tv).I watch this brilliant show regularly as it is probably the only television programme that i know of anyway where free speech truely reigns.The show is ‘two hours long and live’to paraphrase theo chalmers and no subject seems taboo.
Tonight’s show featured the young lady that is the subject of this blog,her mother and the parliamentary candidate for aberdeen south,Robert Green.For anyone who wants to see the show it is usualy repeated in the week following broadcast and i believe old shows are available to view on their website Edgemediatv.com.
The show took the format of the three guests seated on a couch facing theo who asked them questions whilst they related the whole story from the beginning up to the present day.There was no studio audience but as the show is live the public can e-mail comments during the broadcast which theo recieves on a laptop and he can then convey them to the guests as and when he chooses too.
One e-mailer asked the question of the young lady ‘why do you continue to sit there whilst the horrific details of your uncle’s gruesome death are being relayed’(not the exact wording but pretty close) to which she replied ‘because i want to fight.’
Theo then mentioned that they had all discussed things before the show went on air and that the young lady had been quite adamant that she wanted to be there,which she duly confirmed.
I think in light of this comment that it should be quite clear,to anyone who thinks that the mother or mr green are on some sort of self serving crusade,that the only concerns of these wonderfully strong people who are quite clearly making a deep personal sacrifice,is to achieve for the young lady at the heart of this,some kind of justice and closure,and to put the people responsible where they belong.They are still out there who ever they are and more than likely still abusing.More lives needlessly ruined because no one listened.
The abuse is not in doubt,the medical records prove it(acquired a sexualy transmitted disease aged 9,treated without the mother’s knowledge),the only unknowns are who and when.Deserves investigating don’t you think?And the only reason the unknowns remain unknown are because those tasked with asking the relevant questions of the relevant people have failed to do so.
When you sit there and listen to this harrowing story in its entirety it’s painfully obvious unless these people are all liars that there is a huge conspiracy at work here,but who do you turn too when those in charge are amongst the accused?And those in charge but not amongst the accused wont act either?Apart from capitulation mob-rule almost seems the only other option.
All i can say is if i lived in aberdeen south that i would vote robert green on this issue alone,but then in this wonderfull democracy of ours i wouldn’t know that this was an issue in the first place would i?Because robert green wouldn’t be allowed to tell me about it.
I’m not a religious man by any means but i pray for want of a better word that robert green and the young lady and her mother ignore all petty comment and obstruction and continue to find the strength to fight on in the face of perverse adversity and in a crazy world where we seem more interested in protecting the transgressor rights than the transgressed.
May you find unending peace and happiness young lady.
I can tell you all i have received hell from Aberdeen city services and been threatened by a DC DAVE KING that if i pursue trying to expose that my daughter has been abused i will be done over so you ppl can beleave what ever you want but if you want a summery of my true story google youtube paul drockton mr scotland i hope you all look after your family as this can happen to anyone,s family not just in Scotland Aberdeen but all over brittain as these ppl are connected to a network of utter demonic minks……
WAKE UP PPL B4 ITS TO LATE FOR YOUR FAMILY OR FREINDS FAMILYS
Lorraine,
If you wish to post at such length, I suggest you either submit your post for consideration to the editor, or open your own blog. The comments section is there for individuals to comment on the original post, not for you to publicise your party manifesto.
This is not a notice board or a forum. I pay for the bandwidth round here
In a nation where even the rights of the unborn are consideed worthless ,what chance have the rights of our brothers and sisters who have not the right to
be believed when they can only muster a few words in their defence.
In the cesspool of depravity and degeneracy only the obnoxious get justice.
Sub Dic Verbo
Oh dear Anna, what a dissappointing series of assertions you are attempting to put forward.
This case, with the mounting evidence from a host of other victims and thier families confirms above all, the extent of venal corruption that has become mebedded within our society.
There are many that want the disbandment of the family court system which by its very design, can easily be seen to assist the potential for corruption.
Furthermore the extent to which this agenda now seeks to remove the sovereignty of the parents displays that it regards our children as the property of the state.
“Model Child Protection Policies” compiled by those that sit on anonymous committees, outside of public scrutiny and involving large sums of money along with the insidious public private partnerships!
A system that Stalin would have been proud of.
GET REAL, the amount of evidence now accumulating across the western world as to the means by which those in high office are controlled is not some kind of hair brained conspiracy, it is well evidenced.
Finally, I suggest you seek to give cause as to why the Dunblane hearings have been secreted away for a hundred years.
I take it David that you disagree that the rules governing evidence should apply to everyone then?
anna,
the problem for you is this: if people were to read your article in isolation without looking at the other side of the argument then you make quite a convicing argument that we should “move along as there is nothing to see here”
however if they were to look at the other side of the argument and watch for example some of the interviews with people involved (which can easily be found on youtube) then your argument suddenly starts looking weak and contrived, most of the people who have replied to your post appear to be in the second camp, the few people in the first camp seem to be little more than cheerleaders with comments like: “here here anna well said”
It is not beyond the realms of most peoples imagination that there could be corupt elements in the police/legal and political worlds
This is an incredibly complex case that has never been properly investigated. It is insane that in this day and age, when anyone can see that a crime has been committed, that no-one has been brought to justice. Whether it is because of woefully inadequate investigation, a cover up, a flawed legal system or all of the above, doesn’t make any difference to me…..it’s just not right!!!!
I am familiar with this case. I have been running one of the Facebook groups in support of H. And Robert.
I find your article disturbing, and that is putting it very mildly!
It would seem you know very little about the case.
Downs syndrome people do not have the ability to fantasize or make up stories, which makes Hs testimony all the more relevant.
The so called investigation by Grampian police involved her father being taken in for a few hours, they even apologized to him for bothering him with it! two years later her brother was also taken in and released. None of Hs other named abusers were ever questioned, none of the other children that H said were also abused were ever questioned.
Talking to the father and brother was the height of their investigation.
H has now been fighting for justice this ten years!!! Still with no real investigation!
She was awarded criminal injuries as her medical evidence is horrific beyond words!
As for Hs mother being sectioned, you should have got the full details about that, before printing a very bias account of it. The order to have her sectioned was signed by the niece of one of Hs abusers. When she got out of psychiatric care she had the good sense to go privately, to one of Scotland’s leading Psychiatrists, who has given her a clean bill of mental health.
The sectioning came within weeks of their first visit to the police to report the matter.
As for your statement about downs syndrome children being highly sexed and tactile, leaving them more vulnerable to sexual abuse, you disgust me beyond words! H was six years old when the abuse started, it went on for fourteen years!
The crux of this case is that young woman was brutally sexually abused, in the very worst manner, for fourteen years, and all you are concerned about, is the privacy of the abusers!
Shame on you!
Racoon, your writing is very good, although I must expose you as you are an agent provocateur stirring over things you know nothing about.
I have met Robert Green and heard one of his talks. Have you?
Racoons are a stinky bunch at the best of times, and your pathetic attempt to discredit this stinks. Please go back and join the rest of your stinking pack.
I have read every reply to your thought’s Anna Raccon, at what point do you want to reply to the best reply post on here ( MaDamn ). You seem to pick and choose which comments to reply on (usually the ones were you can pick fault with the way it has been addressed or the posters anger at your sickening Tabloid rag take on a terrible episode) and ignore the parts were your piece is dismantled into what it is, a piece of ill thought out slander and sickening verification of heinous crimes against ordinary people. I await your second reading of MaDamn’s brilliant dismantle of your wicked original post, and even may wait about for an apology to all for your misguided at the best validation at the worst comments. Somehow i dont think either will appear on this thread.
When are you going to approve my last post? Are you going to apologise? Are you going to read MaDamn and respond to that further up the post? Or are you going to hide behind your computer. I agree with one of the other posts that all you are doing is helping the peodophiles.
Unless you apologise I will have to publish something about you on my website, that is much highly read than yours!!!
Money and Education, can get you many things. Anna Raccoon clearly has at lest one of these.
Sadly She can not see, the depth of feeling many people are getting in this case of Hollie Green. Its Fine to lock up a man seeking justice for Hollie Greig, But not ok to Question The high up officials, Hollie has Named.
Robert Green, is just one of many, who are not going to stand this sickening Behaver I hear you say about Mob rule. what you forget to say is the mob may be correct and needs more support. If the Law is not working right it needs Changing. If MPs do not have the Guts to sort this out Then They need replacing with people that will. Time for Change
Ignore Chris. He had his children removed by Social Services. He is all over facebook setting up silly groups lambasting them. Social Services had good reason to remove his children. Him threatening you Ms Racoon is an example of the reasons why he can’t be trusted with his own children. I would laugh in the face of his pathetic threats.
Good Lord, I don’t take things like that seriously Steven!
Good lord Anna, seems their is not alot in life you take seriously, especially child abuse. I respect people who stand behind their own convictions, but to do so when one is so blatantly wrong shows the signs of a weak mind. The pen is more powerful than the sword, and my god have you died on yours with this blog….